Chinese semiconductor industry

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tokenanalyst

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ansy1968 said:
@tokenanalyst bro need your view, do you believe that there is a nefarious intent in ASML delayed delivery? or they are following the US restriction on 10nm and below?
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To China? I believe that ASML and even the Dutch government wants to continue dominating the Chinese market, they want to continue selling at least their DUVi machines to China. The problem is that the United States has groups that want to restrict or even destroy the Chinese semiconductor industry because it is a strategic industry. ASML and to some extent Nikon are key to that goal. You can have all semiconductor manufacturing equipment and software, but if you can't print the patterns of your chips you can't make them. For now the goal of the American government is to set China at 14-10nm, but if Trump wins and the Republicans take power, the goal could become to destroy the entire Chinese semiconductor industry. And I say this without hyperbola, I believe China should make its semiconductor industry independent of the United States as much as possible. Americans normally bully countries that are highly dependent on foreign technology. If the Chinese achieve a certain level of technological independence, the Americans are going to back down because their companies are going to complain.

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antiterror13

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ansy1968 said:
@MortyandRick bro from @foofy previous post ASML NXT 2000i DUVL had been delivered at least 2 machine early this year so it was in used on SMIC Shanghai SN1 FAB, the hiccup up or delay is on the rest of the orders that may be needed for SN2 FAB that will produced the N+1 and N+2 7nm chips. My view it is a honest delay, remember ASML had a supply chain issue especially with components with a lot of backlog orders as reported by our esteem member @tinrobert. IF ASML abide Biden orders then its sayonara China market, it will haunt them BIG TIME and a foolish decision with the incoming introduction of a domestic equivalent in the form of SMEE SSB800 28NM DUVL this year , they will rue the day if they decided not to sell or not deliver the purchase machine.
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First time I heard that ASML had delivered NXT 2000i DUVL. I thought the most advanced DUV that ASML could export to China is NXT:1980Di

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ansy1968

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antiterror13 said:
First time I heard that ASML had delivered NXT 2000i DUVL. I thought the most advanced DUV that ASML could export to China is NXT:1980Di

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@antiterror13 Sir the most advance ASML DUVL is NXT 2050i capable of producing 5nm chips, regarding NXT 2000i, Sir if you had the time please reread this thread or look for @foofy post, he posted it when having discussion with @Oldschool.
 
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ansy1968

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@antiterror13 Sir my apologies I was wrong, it was not NXT 2000i BUT NXT 20250i instead ;)

foofy​

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Oldschool said:
EUV and DUV are totally different . They can be developed concurrently.

We will see soon this year China DUV system is a success or not. If not keep working on it. It just take time.

It take times to develope meanwhile buying from ASML allow them to wait for indeginous development
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China already got their ASML Nxt2050i

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  1. Chinese semiconductor industry​

    From zhihu. Huahong Grace got one. SMIC got one. They are keeping low profile.
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    猛练自然强 (作者) 回复知乎用户03-06 是，当时我还想报到一下2050movein的事，被大佬直接叫停谁都不准说。所以圈外的人都不知道SMIC第一时间就搞来全世界第三台NXT2050i 。前两条是T厂和M公司 2回复踩 举报 猛练自然强 (作者) 回复知乎用户03-06...
 
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antiterror13

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ansy1968 said:
@antiterror13 Sir my apologies I was wrong, it was not NXT 2000i BUT NXT 20250i instead ;)

foofy​

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China already got their ASML Nxt2050i

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    From zhihu. Huahong Grace got one. SMIC got one. They are keeping low profile.
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    猛练自然强 (作者) 回复知乎用户03-06 是，当时我还想报到一下2050movein的事，被大佬直接叫停谁都不准说。所以圈外的人都不知道SMIC第一时间就搞来全世界第三台NXT2050i 。前两条是T厂和M公司 2回复踩 举报 猛练自然强 (作者) 回复知乎用户03-06...
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if it is true (which I have some doubts) it is awesome news
 
FairAndUnbiased

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tokenanalyst said:
You're right, those numbers have lost meaning since the transition from planar to finfet. I was using a number that everyone is familiar with, like SMIC 14nm. The tolerances are even greater than that, for the wafer stage, the light source or the optical assembly, we are talking about a few nanometers or picometers depending on the part. Even the 90nm SMEE lithography machine that Western news often look down is a magnificent piece of engineering and talent that only a few countries (3) can archieve. Like you say this machines are more like projects for selected costumers than products.
I personally put SMEE's 28nm lithographic machine as an event as high as the one when China put its first rover on Mars. And the irony is that nobody cares, this type of technology does not attract the attention of the public like a landing on Mars. The only reason the public knows the importance of ASML is because of the Sino-American conflict.
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90 nm isn't bad at all. It is literally at the same level as Canon, a historical giant in optical technology. SMEE has achieved commercial success in packaging lithography applications (40% market share). They laugh but they don't realize that it already has commercial success and "good" vs "bad" is a far smaller gap than "having" vs "not having".

Even as a front end technology, 90 nm is plenty for even some pretty high end microcontrollers that can do everything except run high fidelity graphics and real time DSP. For instance, programming an embedded chip like ARM or AVR, you realize that you can do quite a bit (as in, build some types of scientific instrumentation and machine tools) with 32 bit microcontrollers on a 180 nm process. The cost of scientific instruments and machine tools is rarely the chips, it's the extremely high quality materials and specialty parts.
 
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tokenanalyst

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FairAndUnbiased said:
90 nm isn't bad at all. It is literally at the same level as Canon, a historical giant in optical technology. SMEE has achieved commercial success in packaging lithography applications (40% market share). They laugh but they don't realize that it already has commercial success and "good" vs "bad" is a far smaller gap than "having" vs "not having".

Even as a front end technology, 90 nm is plenty for even some pretty high end microcontrollers that can do everything except run high fidelity graphics and real time DSP. For instance, programming an embedded chip like ARM or AVR, you realize that you can do quite a bit (as in, build some types of scientific instrumentation and machine tools) with 32 bit microcontrollers on a 180 nm process. The cost of scientific instruments and machine tools is rarely the chips, it's the extremely high quality materials and specialty parts.
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With the advantage that SMEE 90nm is 193nm Arf dry while Canon 90nm is 248nm Krf. SMEE Arf dry have a lot of room for improvement, specially in optics and software.

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