Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
TD739 said:
DPP is not meant for commerical. It's experimental thing for proof of concept.
Chinese research institute used DPP for the exact reason of no high power laser available for LPP. If they the high power laser they wouldn't use DPP, its inferior.
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Hi TD739,

Roger that, but the critical part which is the Optics, from WTAN


Harbin Institute of Technology has developed a Ultra Precision Machine Tool which can produce the High Precison Optical Lens for the EUV Machine.

Changchun Institute has developed a 2 Mirror Projection Lens for the EUV Machine.

Apparently the Projection Lens (Optics) has been sucessfully developed.

Attachments
Skywatcher said:
Accelerate to finish the SMEE/CIOMP EUVL prototype in 2021?
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Yes.....it looks like the CAS will be aiming to get the EUV Machine out as soon as possible. They are making the EUV machine a National priority project.

The Changchun Institute of Optics which developed the original EUV machine in 2017 is part of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, so we will see more news from this Organisation.


The Latest development on EUVL again from WTAN

Just heard from some Sources that all the Components of the EUV Machine has been developed.

Just waiting for the Systems Integrator SMEE to move ahead and assemble the Litho Machine.

Harbin Institute has developed a 150W DPP EUV Light Source.
Unfortunately the Light Source has a Short Life Span.
Because of this life span issue, SMEE is reluctant to use the DPP Light Source.
This is holding up the EUV Litho Project.

SMEE may be waiting for the LPP EUV Light Source to be released?
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
TD739 said:
DPP is not meant for commerical. It's experimental thing for proof of concept.
Chinese research institute used DPP for the exact reason of no high power laser available for LPP. If they the high power laser they wouldn't use DPP, its inferior.
Click to expand...
...you do know DPP is itself a high powered laser right? DPP and LPP are just different lasing photon sources.
 
O

Orthan

Senior Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
There is no proof whatsoever that Huawei has backdoor or somehow endanger the security of other nation to the contrary Huawei has tamper proof system denying you know who to eavesdrop on communication
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You are right, but thats not the issue here.

This is a matter of political trust, and want it or not, huawei is a chinese company and china has a single-party state, who doesnt have to answer to any other political force inside the country. So, they may demand something from huawei in the future without anyone stopping them, and rightly or wrongly, china nowadays needs all the information that they can get (trade, and specially technology).

Obviously, that makes countries wary of having a company from china making their comunications networks. I guess that i would be the same if the company came from russia.

Nobonita Barua said:
It's simply that i don't feel comfortable with you people lurking into our country's financial records poking around in SWIFT to secure your azzes.
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who is this "people" that you are talking about? the US? im not american, and what have the US done with SWIFT exactly?
 
M

mderfox

New Member
Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
Hi OppositeDay,

China had the capability to produce up to 22nm (chips used in Beidou satellite), with 45nm SMEE LITHO( the current military chip usage) , 14nm next year with SMEE 28NM LITHO DUVL and 7nm in 2022 it's a continuing process. So for Chinese military and state security they are prepared cause they were under sanction for over a decade now and they were force to look for a local alternative for self sufficiency. Now the same story will be replicated in the civilian sector with the current and future sanction impose by the US, only a threat to your survival will force you to look for a domestic solution, a hard lesson learned.
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i don't believe military doesn't have cutting edge technology, probably the already copy ASML tech.. Technically, military industry doesn't need patent. they can produce anything as long they have technical capabilities. different with civilian, they have facing patent barrier.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
mderfox said:
i don't believe military doesn't have cutting edge technology, probably the already copy ASML tech.. Technically, military industry doesn't need patent. they can produce anything as long they have technical capabilities. different with civilian, they have facing patent barrier.
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The military doesn't require mass production Their need is very small A lot of Chinese research center produce a lot of semiconductor equipment that is not yet ready for mass production but it is okay for military They can used that That is why I say China is not hopeless as some people like it to believe They do have the science and technology base and the military is the first to use it. I don't believe they don't make provision after all the memory of Soviet Union left them dry is still fresh
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
TD739 said:
Even SMEE is ready, ASML could still offer low price due to its matured product and initial investment already recouped.
What made you think China government would do that to a Dutch firm? US government slaughtering Chinese firms yet Chinese government acting scared and idn't go after US firms or setup obstacles for them.
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There is a new thing in the Chinese calculus since 2019 when US began to block supplies to Chinese company, it is called "unreliable foreign entity" that is defined as suppliers who can not or would not provide products according to commercial contract or breaking such contract on the ground that is not in accordance to fair trade. I think ASML fits very well in this list. ASML has renegade from its contract obligation to deliver. So what makes you think that Chinese government would not go after a Dutch firm when China designed a law to target such entities? The small shoe is designed for you specifically if you know the Chinese idiom ;)

Besides, the "low price" is nothing of advantage compared to the risk of being unreliable and arbitrary blockade. I think China will just say "thanks, but no thanks" to ASML. The bottom line is that Chinese like me and many others are willing to pay some extra to buy a Chinese made phone (or whatever) that is a little bit slower than a flagship phone equipped with Qualcomm chip made by a ASML machine. Nobody will feel a slight difference in between anyway because today's electronics (many, not all) are over engineered for bragging purpose, not for practical purpose.

Who blocked the merger of Qualcomm and NXP in 2018? China did it. Qualcomm is US company while NXP is a Dutch firm. Haven't you seen China dropped import of US soybeans, natural gas since 2018? Have you heard that China has been gradually removing Cisco trunk routers from Chinese telecom network? Do you think China will let Boeing 737 to fly over Chinese airspace again easily? Remember China was the first country in the world to ground all 737 after Ethiopian airline's crash which was followed by EU and the rest of the world. If China dared to be the first to punch the US in the face, what makes you think China won't keep on kicking the ass?

What more proof do you what to see? Or you simply close your eyes, ears and pretend nothing will happen to you?;)
 
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weig2000

Captain
Orthan said:
You must understand that countries have a legitimate concern to protect their national communications. Also, with the uncertainty surrounding huawei´s acess to high-level chips, its no surprise that these days few if any 5G customer would want to touch them.
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I'd agree that countries have the right to select communication equipment from any countries they'd like, either for real security reasons or to align with their strategic/security partners.

That said, the statement that "its no surprise that these days few if any 5G customer would want to touch them" is factually wrong. It's only applicable to many western countries.
 
T

TD739

Junior Member
Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
Hi TD739,

Roger that, but the critical part which is the Optics, from WTAN


Harbin Institute of Technology has developed a Ultra Precision Machine Tool which can produce the High Precison Optical Lens for the EUV Machine.

Changchun Institute has developed a 2 Mirror Projection Lens for the EUV Machine.

Apparently the Projection Lens (Optics) has been sucessfully developed.

Attachments

Yes.....it looks like the CAS will be aiming to get the EUV Machine out as soon as possible. They are making the EUV machine a National priority project.

The Changchun Institute of Optics which developed the original EUV machine in 2017 is part of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, so we will see more news from this Organisation.


The Latest development on EUVL again from WTAN

Just heard from some Sources that all the Components of the EUV Machine has been developed.

Just waiting for the Systems Integrator SMEE to move ahead and assemble the Litho Machine.

Harbin Institute has developed a 150W DPP EUV Light Source.
Unfortunately the Light Source has a Short Life Span.
Because of this life span issue, SMEE is reluctant to use the DPP Light Source.
This is holding up the EUV Litho Project.

SMEE may be waiting for the LPP EUV Light Source to be released?
Click to expand...







EUV uses only reflective mirror not optical crystal. Everything needs to be reflective not transmissive. Optical crystal would absorb all EUV light and nothing to pass down.
I have not heard any one else making LPP except the startup I shown you earlier.
So support that startup. A single prototype of that laser would require at least $1 million . And parts sourced from China
 
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T

TD739

Junior Member
Registered Member
taxiya said:
There is a new thing in the Chinese calculus since 2019 when US began to block supplies to Chinese company, it is called "unreliable foreign entity" that is defined as suppliers who can not or would not provide products according to commercial contract or breaking such contract on the ground that is not in accordance to fair trade. I think ASML fits very well in this list. ASML has renegade from its contract obligation to deliver. So what makes you think that Chinese government would not go after a Dutch firm when China designed a law to target such entities? The small shoe is designed for you specifically if you know the Chinese idiom ;)

Besides, the "low price" is nothing of advantage compared to the risk of being unreliable and arbitrary blockade. I think China will just say "thanks, but no thanks" to ASML. The bottom line is that Chinese like me and many others are willing to pay some extra to buy a Chinese made phone (or whatever) that is a little bit slower than a flagship phone equipped with Qualcomm chip made by a ASML machine. Nobody will feel a slight difference in between anyway because today's electronics (many, not all) are over engineered for bragging purpose, not for practical purpose.

Who blocked the merger of Qualcomm and NXP in 2018? China did it. Qualcomm is US company while NXP is a Dutch firm. Haven't you seen China dropped import of US soybeans, natural gas since 2018? Have you heard that China has been gradually removing Cisco trunk routers from Chinese telecom network? Do you think China will let Boeing 737 to fly over Chinese airspace again easily? Remember China was the first country in the world to ground all 737 after Ethiopian airline's crash which was followed by EU and the rest of the world. If China dared to be the first to punch the US in the face, what makes you think China won't keep on kicking the ass?

What more proof do you what to see? Or you simply close your eyes, ears and pretend nothing will happen to you?;)
Click to expand...

Still waiting for that list to announce the real players. So when are they going to announce? Trump's first term going to finish soon. All the example you mentioned are outside scope of current tech war. Meaning China hesitant to counter strike after Trump first strike, afraid to inflame the situation further.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
TD739 said:
Still waiting for that list to announce the real players. So when are they going to announce? Trump's first term going to finish soon. All the example you mentioned are outside scope of current tech war. Meaning China hesitant to counter strike after Trump first strike, afraid to inflame the situation further.
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Oh, so how small is your scope? Or how many small pieces are you going to cut the current "war" which started since Trump got into the office years ago? Ah, I see, you want to cut the war into numerous thin time slices so you can pick just the one snapshot that just shows Trump's strike without seeing his bleeding nose? How clever you are! :rolleyes: :cool: For this, you do strongly resemble Trump himself, claiming win all the time.

As of the "current tech war" that you want to talk, wasn't the TikTok robbery dead already by China's "export control list"? Where is Trump's counter-counter-strike? Isn't Trump scared?:eek: Isn't Trump afraid to inflame? Isn't Trump hesitant?

You apparently refuse to see the inconvenient "current", but choose to only see the convenient "current", aren't you? It is a common behavior for a child. But it is called "ostrich burying head in the sand" among grownups.;)

One last word, I am just wasted 10 minutes of my life on you instead of just doing nothing, will put you into my ignore list. And I honestly don't wish you to have happy times here in SDF afterwards, but then I won't know and don't care. :rolleyes:
 
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