Chinese semiconductor industry

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daifo

Major
Registered Member
But I didn't criticise the US, did I? I actually think that the US was too late to sanction them. If I was the US I would have start restricting China from buying chips long ago (the same time Trump started his sanctions).

The reason why I am saying it is a humiliation for China is that even after all this trade war and then the now tech war, these companies continued using US IP and they still worship foreign technology.

So if you were a Chinese person, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't you feel humiliated if your country's companies were still choosing foreign tech instead of developing their own?

I tell you what, if I was Chinese, I would hang my head with shame for having my fellow Chinese betraying the country every day by choosing to use US IP tech. IMO, the state media should run with this story day in, day out, to make the people understand what is happening and turn them against these treasonous companies.

Replicating the 200 years of lead time the west had to create all this modern tech isn't similar to copying a toy bear or living room furniture. Have you seen where China was at 10, 15, 20 years ago? The entire fall of the qing dynasty and 100+ years of humiliation started because China thought they were the best and had no need for "foreign" tech. I stated it elsewhere, but people visiting these forums daily are expecting progress too fast and maybe should stop visiting as often because its gonna be a long wait till we see a catobar carrier doing air operation and its gonna be a long wait till we see a popular modern commercial chinese cpu.
 
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voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Obama started it, and it didn't go well for America. This is a continuation of that.

This is not "all this trade and tech war." This has only started. It's very early and China's tech system was created as one that was globally-integrated. To replace every US component and IP takes time. You're looking at the beginning of a tech war for the end result and feeling humiliated that you're not finding it.


Are the choosing US/foreign tech despite the availability of Chinese options because they just think foreign is better or are they using this foreign tech because it is the only viable option in the short term as China develops its own alternatives? There's a big difference. The former is humiliating but the latter is survival strategy.
I would say the tech war actually started with the ZTE sanctions on 2017-2018. So that was 3-4 years ago.

The US is now ramping up its actions and who knows if the Chinese independent tech system would have time to develop.

Agreed with your last point on if the foreign IP is better. However thats already 3-4 years into the tech war and while there has been improvements, there are still a lot of dependencies. And dont tell.me that all Chinese believe on self-development. We saw on that tweet, that the ex-head of the company said he didn't believe that Biden would sanction them. With friends like these who needs enemies?..

China should start a mass media campaign to finally make things clear so that noone can hide behind ignorance that "but I didn't know!", for using international IP.
It must be made informally known, that any company which uses US IP is a traitor and its executives should be shunned from the society and other businesses
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I would say the tech war actually started with the ZTE sanctions on 2017-2018. So that was 3-4 years ago.
Still very new for such a massive fight to replace technology developed over so many decades.
The US is now ramping up its actions and who knows if the Chinese independent tech system would have time to develop.
Some people have faith in God but I don't understand that because praying fails all the time. The CCP never fails to lead China to overcome so I have faith in the CCP. Plus, WTAN's posts are quite encouraging as well.
Agreed with your last point on if the foreign IP is better. However thats already 3-4 years into the tech war and while there has been improvements, there are still a lot of dependencies.
Even without the tech war, there would be improvements in 3-4 years. You need to grasp the scale and timeline of a struggle instead of being impatient. 3-4 years may be a long time for a personal grudge with a neighbor but this is a tech cold war and we're just starting. That's the scary part for America; it really only has a chance to win if things start falling apart for China from the very start. If China gets past that by getting the momentum injected into its national tech development, it's only going to snowball and get uglier and more hopeless for America from thereon out. And right now, China's showing no signs of crumbling.
And dont tell.me that all Chinese believe on self-development. We saw on that tweet, that the ex-head of the company said he didn't believe that Biden would sanction them. With friends like these who needs enemies?..
Retards exist everywhere and unfortunately, sometimes they get into high places. I still hope he said, "Really? No way!" with a nonchalant look and an eyeball roll because his company does not really play a critical role to the Chinese military so he thought that those sanctions were poorly placed, but if he was shocked because he simply wasn't prepared, then we need him to step down immediately.
China should start a mass media campaign to finally make things clear so that noone can hide behind ignorance that "but I didn't know!", for using international IP.
I have no doubt that an innumerate number of undisclosed conversations and meetings amongst China's top tech executives and the government have already taken place on how to grow Chinese tech to displace America's dominance.
It must be made informally known, that any company which uses US IP is a traitor and its executives should be shunned from the society and other businesses
The CCP will do more than that. Companies that really step out of line and harm the national interest will be shut down for one reason or another. You don't have to worry about the CCP being soft and losing control here.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
But I didn't criticise the US, did I? I actually think that the US was too late to sanction them. If I was the US I would have start restricting China from buying chips long ago (the same time Trump started his sanctions).

The reason why I am saying it is a humiliation for China is that even after all this trade war and then the now tech war, these companies continued using US IP and they still worship foreign technology.

So if you were a Chinese person, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't you feel humiliated if your country's companies were still choosing foreign tech instead of developing their own?

I tell you what, if I was Chinese, I would hang my head with shame for having my fellow Chinese betraying the country every day by choosing to use US IP tech. IMO, the state media should run with this story day in, day out, to make the people understand what is happening and turn them against these treasonous companies.
You have to realize this is not a matter of "worshipping" foreign IP or anything like that.

This is about global economics. China could reinvent every single object in a supply chain, but the cost/expense would be uncompetitive.
Even the US, they are willing to suffer their own humiliation even if they don't sell it that way. All the car production layoffs due to lack of ICs is their own doing. SMIC was big in that space since cars do not require sub 28nm chips. The "regular joe", probably the victim of the most suffering during this pandemic time, still being sold out by (D) Biden to achieve geopolitical goals.

If you are looking at IP as strictly the knowledge side (vs. the capital investment side), there is a huge movement in China towards open source. There are many up and coming RISC-V products. A lot of software is beginning to be based on open-source projects. These by nature are difficult to sanction because they are not controlled by a single entity. Alibaba's main server software is an offshoot of nginx (Tengine), they are also gearing up to make custom RISC-V server chips. So already, we can see that Chinese companies do not want to solely rely on externally controlled IP.
 

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
You have to realize this is not a matter of "worshipping" foreign IP or anything like that.

This is about global economics. China could reinvent every single object in a supply chain, but the cost/expense would be uncompetitive.
Even the US, they are willing to suffer their own humiliation even if they don't sell it that way. All the car production layoffs due to lack of ICs is their own doing. SMIC was big in that space since cars do not require sub 28nm chips. The "regular joe", probably the victim of the most suffering during this pandemic time, still being sold out by (D) Biden to achieve geopolitical goals.

If you are looking at IP as strictly the knowledge side (vs. the capital investment side), there is a huge movement in China towards open source. There are many up and coming RISC-V products. A lot of software is beginning to be based on open-source projects. These by nature are difficult to sanction because they are not controlled by a single entity. Alibaba's main server software is an offshoot of nginx (Tengine), they are also gearing up to make custom RISC-V server chips. So already, we can see that Chinese companies do not want to solely rely on externally controlled IP.

RISC-V is the future for China and the true free world with ARM falling into the Nvidia/US camp...
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Replicating the 200 years of lead time the west had to create all this modern tech isn't similar to copying a toy bear or living room furniture. Have you seen where China was at 10, 15, 20 years ago? The entire fall of the qing dynasty and 100+ years of humiliation started because China thought they were the best and had no need for "foreign" tech. I stated it elsewhere, but people visiting these forums daily are expecting progress too fast and maybe should stop visiting as often because its gonna be a long wait till we see a catobar carrier doing air operation and its gonna be a long wait till we see a popular modern commercial chinese cpu.
That is not entirely thru I guess you are too young to even know the history. China make good progress after the liberation in 1949 in all sphere of economic activity But the great helmsman know nothing about economy and think that his mass movement can solved all the problem in world since they seem to be successful in overthrowing the Kuomintang coupled with famine and natural disaster it retarded China by a decade.

You think that should chastised him and retire quietly? Take his credit as the founder of new China and the man who change the destiny of China. forever owed gratitude by generation of Chinese . Nope he did it again in cultural revolution turning everything upside down and for well measure retard Chinese economic, scientific progress by another 2 decades for good measure.
exactly the same time when those semiconductor and jet engine at it formation years! coincident you say?

Don't get me wrong without him there will be no China but he also bear responsibility for retarding China progress by 3 decades at least! All are self inflicted wound.
China is still paying for those mistake today

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
That is not entirely thru I guess you are too young to even know the history. China make good progress after the liberation in 1949 in all sphere of economic activity But the great helmsman know nothing about economy and think that his mass movement can solved all the problem in world since they seem to be successful in overthrowing the Kuomintang coupled with famine and natural disaster it retarded China by a decade.

You think that should chastised him and retire quietly? Take his credit as the founder of new China and the man who change the destiny of China. forever owed gratitude by generation of Chinese . Nope he did it again in cultural revolution turning everything upside down and for well measure retard Chinese economic, scientific progress by another 2 decades for good measure.
exactly the same time when those semiconductor and jet engine at it formation years! coincident you say?

Don't get me wrong without him there will be no China but he also bear responsibility for retarding China progress by 3 decades at least! All are self inflicted wound.
China is still paying for those mistake today
China's progress was definitely stalled by Mao but he took that time to instill nationalism and pride into the Chinese people so that we can develop in our own image for our own glorious future from there. Had he focused immediately on development, China would likely need to bow to Western powers like Korea, Japan, and the ROC did for a quick and massive boost. China would have been turned into the biggest pawn/dog of the West against the Soviet Union. Chinese people might have then ended up like Korea, Japan, ROC, lacking pride, vision and ambition, engrained that following the West is the correct way and all that only to be given niche tech roles that are controlled by and dependent on continued Western/US support.

Mao spent those decades not growing the tree much but creating a solid and wholesome root foundation from which the tallest and thickest tree can grow and stand strong. Had he focused on growing the tree first, it might be taller than it is today, but with rotten/insufficient roots, it can be easily knocked down by its enemies... and as you can see, once the US notices another tall tree growing, it comes knocking with all its might.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China's progress was definitely stalled by Mao but he took that time to instill nationalism and pride into the Chinese people so that we can develop in our own image for our own glorious future from there. Had he focused immediately on development, China would likely need to bow to Western powers like Korea, Japan, and the ROC did for a quick and massive boost. China would have been turned into the biggest pawn/dog of the West against the Soviet Union. Chinese people might have then ended up like Korea, Japan, ROC, lacking pride, vision and ambition, engrained that following the West is the correct way and all that only to be given niche tech roles that are controlled by and dependent on continued Western/US support.
All those true but he does not need to wreck the Chinese economy by prosecuting Liu Shao Shi or Deng Xiaoping or the biggest general Peng Tehhuai, capitalist. and worst of all insisting of impractical, Utopian communism. "There is no gain in dividing the pie equally if it small then every body didn't get anything. Make the pie larger than you divide equally now everybody get bigger share of the Pie" Lee Kuan Yew
Pride alone does not filled the stomach!
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
All those true but he does not need to wreck the Chinese economy by prosecuting Liu Shao Shi or Deng Xiaoping or the biggest general Peng Tehhuai. and most of all insisting of impractical, Utopian communism. "There is no gain in dividing the pie equally if it small then every body didn't get anything. Make the pie larger than you divide equally now everybody get bigger share of the Pie" Lee Kuan Yew
He definitely made mistakes, mistakes that are glaring and stupid, terrible even, but on the topic of developing China, I would say he did right by putting the forging of a strong national identity before seeking aggressive national development.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
...
Seems like you are all talk with zero real world experience... unlike you I've been building my own PC gaming rigs since childhood and playing PC games since I can remember, I've bought basically ever major release of every Nvidia GPU that ever came out so far.... I put my money where my mouth is and I live and breathe the real life on the streets and anyone who really knows anything will tell you that Moore's Law is dead... I'm not saying there aren't incremental improvements, but maybe you don't understand the definition of Moore's Law. Moore's Law, as defined, has died a long time ago, the mistake is yours.

The reality on the ground is there is barely no real inventory for ANY of the RTX3000 series right now, even though they launched starting last summer.... and it doesn't appear the inventory issue will be resolved this year... just because you won't buy from scalper doesn't mean the availability isn't an issue, it all goes to show that theoretical progress on paper means nothing if it cannot be brought to market in mass and on time, not to mention the fact that the GPU is now getting ridiculously large, using ridiculous amounts of power/watts, producing ridiculously amounts of heat/waste and this all hides the fact that real progress and real performance improvements gains is grind to a halt...

There was a period of time in which progress did track Moore's Law but you trying to tell me that the slowdown I'm obviously seeing isn't real goes against the face of reality.

Nice joke kid. My first computer was a Commodore 64 and I assemble my own PCs from components.

You seem to have either enough of a lack of knowledge of the computing market that you get ripped off, or enough money that you don't care how you spend it. I am a spendthrift sort of person so I would rather wait and ride out the market.

Memory prices in particular can be really volatile as production ramps up. They typically follow 2 year cycles.

GPUs have had high prices ever since the coin mining craze came up. Yet if you know enough about that market, you can make some guesses. Smaller GPU dies like the Navi are cheaper to produce. When Bitmain and company made ASIC mining of Bitcoin possible the demand for GPUs dropped like a rock. That is basically when I bought my GPU card. The coin miner craze only came up again with regards to GPUs recently with the Ethereum mining craze. Initially Ethereum didn't even have a GPU accelerated version. But that is only going to be an issue until the ASICs for Ethereum become widespread. Right now the ASICs don't provide enough of a performance boost since the Ethereum algorithm is quite complicated to accelerate with hardware. But it isn't impossible.

NVIDIA's GPU sucks for several reasons. The die is huge. You bought a graphics card with a chip which is 628.4 mm². That means the yields on it are going to be awful. Availability will be low and prices high. The GPU chip I bought was 251 mm². Then there is the fact NVIDIA switched to Samsung 8nm while AMD uses TSMC 7nm. Samsung's process is presently less advanced than TSMC's. Plus NVIDIA designers were not used to Samsung's process. It is well known in the industry that NVIDIA goofed up with this one.

To be honest with the market's current craze if I wanted to build a PC right now I would stick with an old card or use integrated graphics. But that is me. I seldom play the latest AAA titles.

Some people have had success buying 2nd hand cards from coin miners over AliExpress for peanuts, flashing the firmware, and outputting over integrated graphics. A coin miner card basically doesn't have video outputs, yet you can typically pass through the video over to the integrated graphics with some work, those guys dump their older cards once they get new ones. They typically sell them for scrap prices. But it is a bit of a gamble. I don't do crap like that.

Just look at the industry. TSMC plans to fab 55000 wafers per month at 3nm in 2022 and 105000 wafers per month in 2023. So I would expect the GPU market to normalize in 2 years.

Moore's Law merely denotes an exponential trend but the speed of advancement, that is the time between each iteration, is not constant. At times advancement has been faster, and at other times it has been slower. Around the time processors were at the 1 GHz speed advancement was really quick. But this was not always the case. Like I said, there is a roadmap for advancing lithography for the next decade. Who knows what will happen after that.
 
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