Chinese semiconductor industry

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CMP

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The thing is,there is a massive buildup of mature node capacity in China right now,but no buildup of advanced node capacity. That means in near future,there is tons of "28/40/55nm" capacity readily available in China,there is really no need for Huawei to build mature node fabs themself,as it will be much cheaper to just outsource it. On the other hand,there will be woeful shortage of advanced node capacity in China,in which Huawei will have to help themself to fill the gap.
An expert can correct me if I am wrong, but what you say about "no buildup of advanced node capacity" is absolutely not true if 7nm chips are considered "advanced". SMIC is scaling that up as demand for the new Huawei phones vastly exceeds chip supply and production capacity.
 

sunnymaxi

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An expert can correct me if I am wrong, but what you say about "no buildup of advanced node capacity" is absolutely not true if 7nm chips are considered "advanced". SMIC is scaling that up as demand for the new Huawei phones vastly exceeds chip supply and production capacity.
i m not an expert but 7nm do count in advanced nodes. and this is true as well, SMIC's most advance Shanghai line is currently expanding. but he meant to say, not as expanding like mature nodes in mainland.

i believe the scale of advance node capacity will further increase from 2025 onward when domestic tools/lithography finish expansion and verification of tools.
 

CMP

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i m not an expert but 7nm do count in advanced nodes. and this is true as well, SMIC's most advance Shanghai line is currently expanding. but he meant to say, not as expanding like mature nodes in mainland.

i believe the scale of advance node capacity will further increase from 2025 onward when domestic tools/lithography finish expansion and verification of tools.

I think he was pretty clear cut in saying there is NO buildup of advanced node capacity. That's quite an absolute assertion that cannot be accepted as truth without significant evidence. Especially since China was supposed to have no advanced node capacity to begin with, as per imperialist sanctions. It seems loopholes and shell companies/intermediaries still exist to get equipment where it needs to go.

He did not say advanced node capacity buildup is slower or lagging behind mature mode capacity buildup. Just reference the quote below. What he said was very absolute and straightforward.

The thing is,there is a massive buildup of mature node capacity in China right now,but no buildup of advanced node capacity.
 
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tphuang

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The thing is,there is a massive buildup of mature node capacity in China right now,but no buildup of advanced node capacity. That means in near future,there is tons of "28/40/55nm" capacity readily available in China,there is really no need for Huawei to build mature node fabs themself,as it will be much cheaper to just outsource it. On the other hand,there will be woeful shortage of advanced node capacity in China,in which Huawei will have to help themself to fill the gap.
Hmm, they need both. You are completely overstating this matured node fab build up.

If it actually meets China's demand, then why is doesn't mcu makers still come close to meet even 50% market share?

The 40/55nm capacity we see them add is a fraction of what's needed. It's a problem that tsmc is allowed to expand on mainland and take market share away.
 

vincent

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Either way Hisilicon only design Huawei high end chips but Huawei consume more low end chips or analog chips also that cannot get from foreign companies because is blacklisted and also they can't get from Chinese companies, so I do think the current mission of Huawei is to reluctantly get into chip manufacturing to make whatever they can't get in the Chinese market with enough quality, enough quantity or is so weird that nobody is making it.​
Their own fault. I believe they sourced their non-Hisilicon components from Western companies only before the sanctions.
 

usb

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Samsung/SK only moved to using EUV with D1a and Micron still did not use EUV by D1b
Does anyone know why Micron introdced EUV 2 Generations after SK/Samsung? It seems a bit strange that they onyl started using EUV now, when everyone else did it so nuch earlier.
 

gelgoog

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Does anyone know why Micron introdced EUV 2 Generations after SK/Samsung? It seems a bit strange that they onyl started using EUV now, when everyone else did it so nuch earlier.
EUV machines are bleeping expensive. Micron tried to delay their introduction as much as they could so they could milk their existing DUV machines as much as possible. It is as simple as that. Intel did the same thing.
 

tphuang

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What phone app would take advantage of peak transfer rates asides from editing 8K videos or large dataset manipulation? 8500MB/ps RAM speed is overkill for 99.9% of use cases and difference is not even that large to be noticeable.

I would imagine the tech between different types of DRAM to be similar. So if they can get to competitive IO speed in LPDDR5X, then maybe they can get to something competitive in DDR5 (assuming they get there). Which would be hugely importantly for AI and data center and such.

Of course in terms of phones/tablet/laptops, if they can get to 15nm process with LPDDR5x by 2025, then that will be huge for revenue


Still biggest news of the week imo
 

tphuang

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Alright, so I read through the SMEC Investor Q&A from November. A lot of interesting notes in there

本身也是对我们发展现状和历史积累的充分认可。 截至9月,公司的SiC MOS月出货达到了4000片6英寸晶圆,其中90% 用于车载主驱逆变器。最新一代高性能SiC MOS已经发布并送样, 性能达到全球先进水平。感谢您的关注!
8英寸硅基月产能17万片;SiC MOS、12英寸产 线处于产量爬升过程中,其中SiC MOS单月产量已从6月的2000片/ 月爬升到9月的4000片/月以上。随着产品研发以及产能的不断释 放,SiC MOS产线、12英寸产线
SiC production up to 4k wpm by end of Q3 from 2k just 3 months earlier. 90% of that is used for main electric drive inverter. Looks like SMEC will get really good here. And they continue to increase 12-inch & in-inch wafers too

公司在MEMS车载惯性导航和激光雷达上 取得明显进展,开始稳定上量,加快市场渗透,成为国内这一赛道 的领先者。感谢您的关注!
Huge gain here in MEMS INS & Lidar system. I think MEMS is one of the most critical semiconductor field that just don't get the attention. So many important tools need them

公司的8英寸射频滤波器技术国内领 先,且已经实现规模量产,主要应用于4G、5G等射频前端领域。谢 谢您的关注!
公司已全面布局物联网产业所需射 频前端的核心芯片及模组,目前射频相关技术主要应用于高端电子 消费,如通信领域的射频开关,智能家居领域的无线射频模块等。 公司作为集成电路制造代工平台,客户信息按照客户的要求需要保 密,因此具体客户信息涉及商业秘密,不便披露。 为了拓宽采购 来源,提升供应链安全性,公司一直在持续推动设备与材料多元化 供应商的评估认证。感谢您对公司的关注!
Claims its 8-inch RF filter tech is leading in China and used in 4G/5G areas. I think Newsonic & Huntersun use SMEC
Looks like they also fab RF switches & other consumer electronics stuff

公司的BAW滤波器工艺和产品已经进入 批量生产状态,性能可以对标国外主流厂商。特别用于5G的滤波器 产品,已经在客户终端验证阶段。感谢您的关注!
Again, they claim here that their BAW filter tech is already in mass production and comparable to foreign IDMs, especially 5G filter, accepted by mobile end users. I don't know if this includes N77/N79

公司的一期、二期生产工 厂均按照车规要求建设,8英寸IGBT产能已达到8万片/月,是国内 最大的车规级IGBT生产基地。谢谢您的关注。
Look at this 80k wpm of 8-inch wafer IGBT production. Largest IGBT producer in China. Huge here in their domestication efforts

SMEC pretty important even if it doesn't fab advanced nodes
 

tphuang

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Interesting, this FT article had stuff that's not awful (I mean if you can ignore the usual think tank nonsense)
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According to ASML, the Dutch lithography machine manufacturer, it takes 34 lithography steps to achieve 7 nm on DUV machinery, compared to just nine steps with EUV. The additional production steps result in higher production costs and lower yields.
this is quite interesting. Now, I don't think 34 lithography steps vs 9 steps means 4x the time for the entire process, but just the multiple exposures here is quite interesting

Production yields for the Kirin 9000S remain shrouded in mystery, with neither Huawei nor SMIC making any public statements on the matter. One person close to Kirin 9000S production in the early days says that the Kirin 9000S achieved yields of more than 30 per cent during the risky volume production phase, the step before mass production. The person describes that as a “positive number under tough conditions” but notes that it is “at least a two times increase in cost compared to a production line with a 90 per cent yield, the ideal benchmark for the mobile chips fabrication.”
so they said early days it was already at 30-40% in the pre-MP phase. That seems reasonable. I'm sure it's a lot higher now

AI chips are larger than the smartphone processors and so more likely to be defective due to production errors. According to a source familiar with the production side, the current yield rate of Huawei’s Ascend 910B chips is only just over 20 per cent, meaning almost four out of every five chips produced are defective.
so this is the interesting part. using 0.2 to 0.25 D0, I rounded yield rate on Ascend 910B to 25%. But using that D0, I got 70 to 75% for Kirin 9000S. Again, the yield here is close to what I think it is.
 
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