Chinese semiconductor industry

hvpc said:

Yes

Only 1 SSB800 iLine scanner has been shipped to SMEE “customer” last September. It’s still not in production as of today. Like I said, many critical features are missing so the fab’s target application will be for the least critical layers with very loose specification/tolerance. Initial target applications would be for the polyamide or for the implant layers for memory fabs to test out SMEE SSB800 machines. SMEE is having trouble shipping the 2nd SSB800 iLine scanner

SMEE is also having trouble with shipping the first SSC800 KrF scanner.

First, resolution capability or half-pitch capability, does not have one-to-one correlation with the design/process node.

Assuming SMEE is really working on a 193nm dry SSA800, it’s more likely it will target 65nm resolution capability. Application for such tool would be for critical layers down to 55nm node.

The 193nm immersion resolution capability would be 38nm. with everyone indicating this scanner is to be equivalent to ArFi used for 28nm, the target specifications would mimic ASML’s NXT1950.

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Thanks for your reply and corrections.

So I rewrite the summary.

Nobody knows for sure what's going on with SMEE, so this is the most pessimistic case, or let's say the case for which @hvpc has reliable and confirmed info.

1. SMEE new platform is a double wafer stage type and is named 800 series. This series totally replaces the obsolete 600 series.

2. SSB800 i-line capable of 280nm resolution. Shipped to 1 customer in September 2022. Still not in full production (although 4 months for installation and ramp up are not a lot). There is also a second machine of this type, but is still not delivered.

3. SSC800 KrF capable of 110nm resolution. Should be more or less ready but has still not been shipped to customer.

4. SSA800 dry Arf capable of 65nm resolution, for critical layers down to 55nm node. Not clear if this machine has been shipped already. Rumors say IRCD is testing a fully localized line for 55nm node. If rumor is confirmed, this probably is the machine used.

5. Prototype immersion Arf capable of 38nm resolution, for critical layers down to 28nm node. This machine is still in assembly / validation at SMEE and eventually will be delivered to customer for verification and testing within this year (according to havoc).

hvpc said:

Only 1 SSB800 iLine scanner has been shipped to SMEE “customer” last September. It’s still not in production as of today. Like I said, many critical features are missing so the fab’s target application will be for the least critical layers with very loose specification/tolerance. Initial target applications would be for the polyamide or for the implant layers for memory fabs to test out SMEE SSB800 machines. SMEE is having trouble shipping the 2nd SSB800 iLine scanner

SMEE is also having trouble with shipping the first SSC800 KrF scanner.

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That's fine. I don't think anyone here is suggesting SSB800 or SSC800 is validated or in production. In fact, Havok himself said that they are not. I get the sense that SMEE is having enough trouble getting SSA800 into mass production and that's their focus right now.

But again, if you are willing to share info, please share it in a non-condescending manner.

PopularScience said:

Double stage Arf 90nm. New machine. Not SSA600

这个干式是600系列还是800系列新搓的？

Havok: 新搓的

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Yes, I know that's what havok said but there is a lot of questions in these thread and this particular answer frankly contradicted his other statements. I think he is personally having trouble with deciding what he can or cannot share

He has also said the one testing with ICRD is for 65nm resolution and that one is still waiting for mass production. So unless there is additional info, I'm going to assume the mass produced one is the same one that was declared as such by Shanghai gov't last year, which is most likely SSA600.

european_guy said:

1. SMEE new platform is a double wafer stage type and is named 800 series. This series totally replaces the obsolete 600 series.

2. SSB800 i-line capable of 280nm resolution. Shipped to 1 customer in September 2022. Still not in full production. There is also a second machine of this type, but is still not delivered.

3. SSC800 KrF capable of 110nm resolution. Should be more or less ready but has still not been shipped to customer.

4. SSA800 dry Arf capable of 65nm resolution, for critical layers down to 55nm node. Not clear if this machine has been shipped already. Rumors say IRCD is testing a fully localized line for 55nm node. If rumor is confirmed, this probably is the machine used.

5. Prototype immersion Arf capable of 38nm resolution, for critical layers down to 28nm node. This machine is still in assembly / validation at SMEE and eventually will be delivered to customer for verification and testing within this year.

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I think we can assume nothing in the 800 series is in mass production. It sounds like SSA800 dry has the most attention and is the closest to mass production. Arfi is likely a year away from validating and mass production.

hvpc said:

lots of rumors and speculations, some may turn out to be true. But, I only trust what my customers and trusted industry peers tell me. Everything else I take with a grain of salt.

so, apologies for not jumping on the same bandwagon as the most of you.

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Question is where are your customers and industry peers hearing their news. Lots of rumors and speculations going in contradicting directions are just leaks or derivations of what insiders are saying amongst themselves anyways, and even insiders play games of telephone. Lots of insiders in the industry I work in think they understand what’s going on at my company and with our products and they get stuff wrong all the time.

FairAndUnbiased said:

Typical useless MSM article that doesn't understand the difference between design, process and equipment, lumps western countries together as if UK with 180 nm process on 200 mm wafers as their most advanced fab is comparable to Taiwan, etc.

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It has important inaccuracies. But it is notable important information. Huawei's major progress is certainly newsworthy...

Asking for a friend:

Does Huawei's filing for an EUV patent and the acceptance by the Chinese agency authorized to accept that pattern certainly mean that Huawei can now readily indeed produce tangible properly functional components, equipment, and systems of what it filed a patent for?

Does it mean that Huawei can now produce an EUV machines comparable to that which ASML can produce?

hvpc said:

And that would be the SSA600 system. This is not the same as the ArF capable of 55nm node production that havic/you guys spoke of.

and I would question havoc’s definition of “mass production”. Shipping one or two systems doesn’t put it in the “mass production” category.

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It is not that, it is just how translation works.

"Mass production" that is "volume production" literally in Chinese.

What is the difference between mass production and volume production? I don't know, the Chinese characters are the same. What it should mean, it that these are not prototypes machines being built. What is being built is the real deal.

We can use the term, "Full production," because that is what is going on, as those Chinese article claim to be the case.

What is "Full production?" Probably just a few machines per year for now.

latenlazy said:

Question is where are your customers and industry peers hearing their news. Lots of rumors and speculations going in contradicting directions are just leaks or derivations of what insiders are saying amongst themselves anyways, and even insiders play games of telephone. Lots of insiders in the industry I work in think they understand what’s going on at my company and with our products and they get stuff wrong all the time.

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Some people are ahead of the curve.

Some people are behind of the curve.

The long run tells who will be right.

Interesting timez we live in.

european_guy said:

Thanks for your reply and corrections.

So I rewrite the summary.

Nobody knows for sure what's going on with SMEE, so this is the most pessimistic case, or let's say the case for which @hvpc has reliable and confirmed info.

1. SMEE new platform is a double wafer stage type and is named 800 series. This series totally replaces the obsolete 600 series.

2. SSB800 i-line capable of 280nm resolution. Shipped to 1 customer in September 2022. Still not in full production (although 4 months for installation and ramp up are not a lot). There is also a second machine of this type, but is still not delivered.

3. SSC800 KrF capable of 110nm resolution. Should be more or less ready but has still not been shipped to customer.

4. SSA800 dry Arf capable of 65nm resolution, for critical layers down to 55nm node. Not clear if this machine has been shipped already. Rumors say IRCD is testing a fully localized line for 55nm node. If rumor is confirmed, this probably is the machine used.

5. Prototype immersion Arf capable of 38nm resolution, for critical layers down to 28nm node. This machine is still in assembly / validation at SMEE and eventually will be delivered to customer for verification and testing within this year (according to havoc).

Click to expand...

Lets put it this way, is like a black hole, you can't see it directly, so you have to take the weird things happening around it to extrapolate what is happening, patents, research papers, companies statements, research institutions statements and any piece of information of any semi-reputable source inside China. That is what we try to put out here, just pieces of information of what is being develop. People will take that and make their own personal judgment.

Weaasel said:

Does it mean that Huawei can now produce an EUV machines comparable to that which ASML can produce?

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For us lay people, after looking at some of those diagrams for that patent for Huawei EUV, two things came to mind.

It was not some idea dreamed up, there were real drawings and what they seemed to have patent is some sort of process control. That they did the process/experiment, discovered something new, and had to patent it. In short, looked like they set up the gear in a lab and tested it and it worked.

What seems to logically follow from that, is that drawings look like blueprints on how they going to build that thing.

How close to the leading edge will it be in terms of performance and durability, and efficiency, we will know in a few years.

The only real thing we can get from that patent, that a lot of work is being done, and there appears to be swift progress.

The EUV story, in China, will just follow the DUV domestication story in China. Which is not a revelation. It could be slower, or it could be faster. Seems more likely the latter will be the case.

horse said:

It is not that, it is just how translation works.

"Mass production" that is "volume production" literally in Chinese.

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Okay, going off topic, just briefly, because it could be mildly interesting to some.

Mass production, that is proper English. But is there a phrase volume production in English?

Producing quantities in volume, is like a common phrase, but volume production? Seems natural, because that is how it is translated from the Chinese.

So I think, volume production is not real English, but Chinglish. Seems natural to us, you know.