Chinese semiconductor industry

tokenanalyst · Dec 14, 2022

Dongfeng Motor's silicon carbide power module will achieve mass production in 2023

Core tip: It is reported that Dongfeng's Zhixin Semiconductor silicon carbide power module project will achieve mass production and loading in 2023. At the same time, the joint automotive chip laboratory jointly established by Dongfeng Motor and China Xinke is
It is reported that Dongfeng's Zhixin Semiconductor silicon carbide power module project will achieve mass production and loading in 2023.
At the same time, the joint automotive chip laboratory jointly established by Dongfeng Motor and China Xinke is promoting the landing of automotive-grade MCU chips in Han, and is expected to achieve mass production in 2024; in cooperation with SMIC, the design of the first MCU chip has been completed.
As an upgraded product of the IGBT module and a third-generation semiconductor, the silicon carbide power module has the characteristics of lower loss, higher efficiency, higher temperature resistance and high voltage. According to reports, the silicon carbide power module project was established in Zhixin in January 2021, and the current subject has been successfully completed. It will be equipped with Dongfeng's independent new energy passenger vehicles in 2023 to achieve mass production. This module can promote the iteration of the electrical architecture of new energy vehicles from 400V to 800V, so as to achieve 80% charging in 10 minutes, further increase the cruising range of the vehicle, and reduce the cost of the vehicle.
According to public information, in October this year, Dongfeng Motor announced that Zhixin Semiconductor, a joint venture with CRRC, has started the construction of the second phase of the project, with an annual production capacity of 1.2 million. The demand for IGBT modules for the production and sales of 1 million new energy vehicles can also be supplied to other car companies.

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olalavn · Dec 14, 2022

mossen said:
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The US is basically throwing the kitchen sink at this point. I don't think it will work, but it could slow China down a bit in the short-term. Over the medium-to-long term, I suspect it will speed up China's indigenisation drive.

from next year... they will accelerate it... i'm afraid they are building all 28nm-5nm fab in just 1 year

Blitzo · Dec 14, 2022

mossen said:
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The US is basically throwing the kitchen sink at this point. I don't think it will work, but it could slow China down a bit in the short-term. Over the medium-to-long term, I suspect it will speed up China's indigenisation drive.

Not directed specifically at you -- but imo the US has yet to actually throw the "kitchen sink" in.

Full scale mobilization against China's semi and tech industry would probably look something like a combination of the below:
- creating laws to allow the US to apply sanctions and secondary sanctions on anyone (from CEO to employee) involved in China's semi and tech industry, that includes but is not limited to travel, finances etc
- creating trumped up charges or even outright making involvement in China's own semi and tech industry a criminal offense that is subject to prosecution in the US or any US allied country (extradition), for anyone in the world including China's own citizens and even family members of targets
- the use of harassment campaigns through intermediaries to target anyone involved in China's semi and tech industry
- and last but not least, the use of Mossad-esque targeted assassinations and "accidents".

In essence, I suspect the US will want to create a situation whereby "involvement in China's semi and tech industry" is the equivalent of "being involved in Al Qaeda" of the 2000s/2010s, and thus everyone involved from footsoldiers to leaders would have finances and travel restricted, subject to constant threat of prosecution and legal frameworks in US and US allied nations, and even subject to targeted killings and assassinations.

So, we have yet to see the true extent of extra-territoriality that the US is capable of.

All of which is to say, that when elements of the above list begin to happen over the coming years (as the US is likely to become more desperate), I hope people here expect it.

ZeEa5KPul · Dec 14, 2022

Blitzo said:
Not directed specifically at you -- but imo the US has yet to actually throw the "kitchen sink" in.

Full scale mobilization against China's semi and tech industry would probably look something like a combination of the below:
- creating laws to allow the US to apply sanctions and secondary sanctions on anyone (from CEO to employee) involved in China's semi and tech industry, that includes but is not limited to travel, finances etc
- creating trumped up charges or even outright making involvement in China's own semi and tech industry a criminal offense that is subject to prosecution in the US or any US allied country (extradition), for anyone in the world including China's own citizens and even family members of targets
- the use of harassment campaigns through intermediaries to target anyone involved in China's semi and tech industry
- and last but not least, the use of Mossad-esque targeted assassinations and "accidents".

In essence, I suspect the US will want to create a situation whereby "involvement in China's semi and tech industry" is the equivalent of "being involved in Al Qaeda" of the 2000s/2010s, and everyone from footsoldiers to leaders would have finances and travel restricted, subject to constant prosecution in US and US allied nations, and even subject to killings and assassinations.

So, we have yet to see the true extent of extra-territoriality that the US is capable of.

All of which is to say, that when elements of the above list begin to happen over the coming years (as the US is likely to become more desperate), I hope people here expect it.

I fully expect increasing legal and financial pressures, but assassinations is a bit much. We should also note that China has refrained from retaliation so far - but if anything like the extremes you've described come about, there's no way China wouldn't respond in kind.

Blitzo · Dec 14, 2022

ZeEa5KPul said:
I fully expect increasing legal and financial pressures, but assassinations is a bit much. We should also note that China has refrained from retaliation so far - but if anything like the extremes you've described come about, there's no way China wouldn't respond in kind.

Assassinations would certainly be on the most extreme end of things and likely would only be done in leadup years to outright actual military conflict, but I could certainly see selective use of "accidents" being enabled for individuals deemed "high priority". But it would only be able to be used a once or twice before China knows what's going on.

Whether the US would continue to do so would likely depend on how they assess China would retaliate, and it may well be that the US would not be fully rational in carrying out such a policy by then.

AndrewS · Dec 14, 2022

Blitzo said:
Not directed specifically at you -- but imo the US has yet to actually throw the "kitchen sink" in.

Full scale mobilization against China's semi and tech industry would probably look something like a combination of the below:
- creating laws to allow the US to apply sanctions and secondary sanctions on anyone (from CEO to employee) involved in China's semi and tech industry, that includes but is not limited to travel, finances etc
- creating trumped up charges or even outright making involvement in China's own semi and tech industry a criminal offense that is subject to prosecution in the US or any US allied country (extradition), for anyone in the world including China's own citizens and even family members of targets
- the use of harassment campaigns through intermediaries to target anyone involved in China's semi and tech industry
- and last but not least, the use of Mossad-esque targeted assassinations and "accidents".

In essence, I suspect the US will want to create a situation whereby "involvement in China's semi and tech industry" is the equivalent of "being involved in Al Qaeda" of the 2000s/2010s, and thus everyone involved from footsoldiers to leaders would have finances and travel restricted, subject to constant threat of prosecution and legal frameworks in US and US allied nations, and even subject to targeted killings and assassinations.

So, we have yet to see the true extent of extra-territoriality that the US is capable of.

All of which is to say, that when elements of the above list begin to happen over the coming years (as the US is likely to become more desperate), I hope people here expect it.

I expect more sanctions happening yes.

But its counterproductive for the US to do the other stuff, because China will respond in kind.
Seriously, if the US starts assassinating people in the Chinese tech industry, then it means all those executives at Google, Amazon, Microsoft etc are going to really be scared. And they're the ones who are providing the cloud and cyber capabilities that the US military is reliant on.

Remember that it is the US which would be starting the assassinations and industrial sabotage.
They would lose much of the neutral world and some allies over this.
The US would be seen as just another violent and vindictive hegemon.
Just look at Cuba as an example, but whilst the world has forgotten about Cuba, China is very much relevant in every respect

tokenanalyst · Dec 14, 2022

Blitzo said:
- creating laws to allow the US to apply sanctions and secondary sanctions on anyone (from CEO to employee) involved in China's semi and tech industry, that includes but is not limited to travel, finances etc

That would a really a good way to break American alliances, I don't think the Euros will stand still and see their CEOs and citizens harassed and arrested willy and nilly just for doing business. Coercion is the best way to convert your friends into enemies.

Blitzo said:
- creating trumped up charges or even outright making involvement in China's own semi and tech industry a criminal offense that is subject to prosecution in the US or any US allied country (extradition), for anyone in the world including China's own citizens and even family members of targets

That won't stand even by US own laws and would put Americans and any supporter of extradition at risk, the US would have to evacuate Americans from China and any China jurisdiction immediately. It will mean the beginning of WW3.

Blitzo said:
- the use of harassment campaigns through intermediaries to target anyone involved in China's semi and tech industry

See the first anwser.

Blitzo said:
- and last but not least, the use of Mossad-esque targeted assassinations and "accidents".

That would be a declaration of war, probably WW3 and will put US assets and citizens at risk of being destroyed or killed because the Chinese could support Anti-American proxies against the US over the world. At the moment this happen. buy an nuclear bunker.

That is crazy.

Things that US will probably do.

-Ban Chinese companies from using the US financial system.
-Ban legal US residents from working in China.
-Put secondary export controls against Companies selling to China.
-Use the FDPR against foreign companies.

Anything involving US Assets, products, money and people.

Even those are dangerous because.
-I could accelerate the de-dollarization of the global economy.
-It could make the US less attractive to foreign talent.
-It could put US own allies against them
-The same rules could be applied to US companies.

FairAndUnbiased · Dec 14, 2022

Blitzo said:
Not directed specifically at you -- but imo the US has yet to actually throw the "kitchen sink" in.

Full scale mobilization against China's semi and tech industry would probably look something like a combination of the below:
- creating laws to allow the US to apply sanctions and secondary sanctions on anyone (from CEO to employee) involved in China's semi and tech industry, that includes but is not limited to travel, finances etc
- creating trumped up charges or even outright making involvement in China's own semi and tech industry a criminal offense that is subject to prosecution in the US or any US allied country (extradition), for anyone in the world including China's own citizens and even family members of targets
- the use of harassment campaigns through intermediaries to target anyone involved in China's semi and tech industry
- and last but not least, the use of Mossad-esque targeted assassinations and "accidents".

In essence, I suspect the US will want to create a situation whereby "involvement in China's semi and tech industry" is the equivalent of "being involved in Al Qaeda" of the 2000s/2010s, and thus everyone involved from footsoldiers to leaders would have finances and travel restricted, subject to constant threat of prosecution and legal frameworks in US and US allied nations, and even subject to targeted killings and assassinations.

So, we have yet to see the true extent of extra-territoriality that the US is capable of.

All of which is to say, that when elements of the above list begin to happen over the coming years (as the US is likely to become more desperate), I hope people here expect it.

They can declare anything they want but whether they have the capability to enforce it is a different matter and whether or not they are ready for the blowback is another. They couldn't even declare Soviet scientists to be outlaws and you think they can do it to China?

What do they think is gonna happen to US citizens, IP and overseas assets in that case?

Blitzo · Dec 14, 2022

AndrewS said:
I expect more sanctions happening yes.

But its counterproductive for the US to do the other stuff, because China will respond in kind.
Seriously, if the US starts assassinating people in the Chinese tech industry, then it means all those executives at Google, Amazon, Microsoft etc are going to really be scared. And they're the ones who are providing the cloud and cyber capabilities that the US military is reliant on.

Remember that it is the US which would be starting the assassinations and industrial sabotage.
They would lose much of the neutral world and some allies over this.
The US would be seen as just another violent and vindictive hegemon.
Just look at Cuba as an example, but whilst the world has forgotten about Cuba, China is very much relevant in every respect

It depends on how rational the US is, and how much the US can whip the rest of the world into a China-hating norm. I.e.: how much they can shift the Overton window.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that I think the US will necessarily be successful in the measures I described, but I think we should expect the US to try all of them on and push for it.

tokenanalyst said:
That would a really a good way to break American alliances, I don't think the Euros will stand still and see their CEOs and citizens harassed and arrested willy and nilly just for doing business. Coercion is the best way to convert your friends into enemies.

That won't stand even by US own laws and would put Americans and any supporter of extradition at risk, the US would have to evacuate Americans from China and any China jurisdiction immediately. It will mean the beginning of WW3.

See the first anwser.

That would be a declaration of war, probably WW3 and will put US assets and citizens at risk of being destroyed or killed because the Chinese could support Anti-American proxies against the US over the world. At the moment this happen. buy an nuclear bunker.

That is crazy.

Things that US will probably do.

-Ban Chinese companies from using the US financial system.
-Ban legal US residents from working in China.
-Put secondary export controls against Companies selling to China.
-Use the FDPR against foreign companies.

Even those are dangerous because.
-I could accelerate the de-dollarization of the global economy.
-It could make the US less attractive to foreign talent.
-It could put US own allies against them
-The same rules could be applied to US companies.

As I said, the most extreme of these measures (like assassinations) conducted on a large scale would likely be in the outright lead up to military conflict.

However I can certainly see the US trying to push as hard as possible for all of these options among its allies/tributary states. How successful it will be is another matter.

FairAndUnbiased said:
They can declare anything they want but whether they have the capability to enforce it is a different matter and whether or not they are ready for the blowback is another. They couldn't even declare Soviet scientists to be outlaws and you think they can do it to China?

What do they think is gonna happen to US citizens, IP and overseas assets in that case?

Chill out, I'm not saying that I expect US measures to necessarily be successful, nor do I think such measures will be rational.

But I fully expect US hostility to likely lead them to try such measures, and when it happens, I hope we can all take a step back and acknowledge "yes, this was entirely expected and we all saw it coming years ago".

ZeEa5KPul · Dec 14, 2022

Blitzo said:
Assassinations would certainly be on the most extreme end of things and likely would only be done in leadup years to outright actual military conflict, but I could certainly see selective use of "accidents" being enabled for individuals deemed "high priority". But it would only be able to be used a once or twice before China knows what's going on.

Whether the US would continue to do so would likely depend on how they assess China would retaliate, and it may well be that the US would not be fully rational in carrying out such a policy by then.

First, I'd like to note that this hypothetical insane escalation by the US would come about because it utterly failed in its objective to stop China's technological development - so it's good to have this implicit vote of confidence from you.

I think China didn't retaliate to the US's provocations so far because it didn't want to disrupt links with foreign suppliers and damage its business "credibility." If things continue deteriorating then I fully expect these considerations to be junked and China to take the gloves off. China responded immediately to Meng Wanzhou's arrest with a similar action, so there are circumstances where business takes a back seat.

On the subject of assassinations (or "accidents") specifically, I will note several factors:

China is a very heavily surveilled environment that's very difficult to breach. This stands in contrast to an easy target like Iran with a large impoverished, corrupt, and dissatisfied pool of potential recruits. China also has far deeper insight and penetration into US intelligence operations and would likely catch wind of something like this in the planning phase.
There are a lot more Chinese-Americans than vice versa.
It's a lot easier to get one's hands on firearms in America than in China.
Last, and certainly not least, American politicians and lawmakers mingle with the public a lot more than their Chinese counterparts do. Election campaigns aren't really a thing in China.

Blitzo said:
Keep in mind, I'm not saying that I think the US will necessarily be successful in the measures I described, but I think we should expect the US to try all of them on and push for it.

Placing Huawei on the SDN seems to be the next provocation, and I'm 50/50 about whether we'll see a Chinese response. At minimum, I expect China to harden its banking and financial systems so American sanctions are a non-factor. This will be necessary if Huawei and similar companies are to have an international presence outside the West, as the recent deal with Saudi Arabia indicates it wishes to.

Blitzo said:
As I said, the most extreme of these measures (like assassinations) conducted on a large scale would likely be in the outright lead up to military conflict.

Another reason why China attaining nuclear parity is critical.

Chinese semiconductor industry

tokenanalyst

Brigadier

Dongfeng Motor's silicon carbide power module will achieve mass production in 2023

olalavn

Senior Member

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

AndrewS

Brigadier

tokenanalyst

Brigadier

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel

Chinese semiconductor industry

Brigadier

Dongfeng Motor's silicon carbide power module will achieve mass production in 2023​

Senior Member

Lieutenant General

Colonel

Lieutenant General

Brigadier

Brigadier

Brigadier

Lieutenant General

Colonel

Dongfeng Motor's silicon carbide power module will achieve mass production in 2023