Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
My guess is the first small batch of immersion tools are going to sanctioned companies like Huawei and for companies like SMIC and YTMC to test and codevelop. What ASML should be worry is about the dry tools especially the I-line and KrF, because I don't think that the big names in the Chinese semiconductor industry are all investing all this money in lithography just to compete with ASML in a "fairly manner".
Even taking the market for i-line, KrF, dry ArF tools from ASML doesn't do much to reduce ASML revenue, as the bulk of their sales comes from EUV and ArFi. It does help SMEE though.

The other problem is that with i-line and KrF we don't see improvement from SMEE. Something like a dual stage KrF tool or a 365 nm LED i-line source tool would show improvement.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
The gist of what you have been saying over the last few pages with regards to SMEE's 90 nm lithography machines is that they do not produce sufficient commercially viable chips in terms of the number of wafers they process per hour, huh?
To my understanding what the guy hpvc is saying that if you go the public available information (from 10 years ago) you find that it use a underpower 20W ArF DUV laser when ASML use a 60W Arf laser, has an 0.75NA lens system limiting the resolution when ASML can reach 0.9NA, is single stage with a disappointing MMO and low acceleration when ASML stage are dual (can do metrology), precise and fast. All of that translate to very disappointing WPH. My personal opinion hpvc is extrapolating that information to today to make an assessment.
I say that a lot has change from 10 years ago, U-Precision wafer stages are more precise, faster and dual stage. Rslaser subsystems are much more powerful. China CAS and Guowang Optical have develop better lenses and lens systems, they have better and more precise fabrication tools and so on.
They have reached the same level of ASML? I don't know, but they are in a much much better position than 10 years ago IMHO.
 

european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
The gist of what you have been saying over the last few pages with regards to SMEE's 90 nm lithography machines is that they do not produce sufficient commercially viable chips in terms of the number of wafers they process per hour, huh?

If the only "issue" of the SMEE's 90 nm SSX600 series machines would have been slow productivity, I guess, all considered, that they would had sell them anyhow, at least is small numbers. My take is that there are other problems, impossible to say which. The most immediate and natural assumption is a combination of reliability issues AND that SMEE seems to have abandoned the project.

If, as it seems, there is still no machines production after many years from their market launch, then is fair to say it is probably a dead project now, because SMEE is today totally involved in the development of the new SSX800 dual stage series. Who would buy an unsupported and not actively developed machine of which exist only very few and old prototypes?

Unfortunately SMEE is a very secretive company, even for Chinese standards. There are no official statements, no public roadmap, no financial statements, no official revenue and sales information. Even SMEE's size and number of employee is not known officially. There is just their website with many stale pages, and a wild sea of rumors and half-infos.

We can safely assume that they have progressed a lot since years ago, when their website refers, but where are they now? Nobody from SMEE likes to talk.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
The other problem is that with i-line and KrF we don't see improvement from SMEE. Something like a dual stage KrF tool or a 365 nm LED i-line source tool would show improvement.
I think all future SMEE scanners will be dual stage including the I-line and KrF dry, RSLaser already has a 40W 4KHZ KrF laser, pretty much the standard.
I don't know if is possible to print below the wavelength features with LEDs with good performance because they are low power compared to mercury lamps but for packaging and application were the resolution is above the wavelength, UV-LED could be a game changer and SMEE should upgrade their 500 and 300 series to it.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
Looks like everybody is jumping the boat to UV-LED
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the only "issue" of the SMEE's 90 nm SSX600 series machines would have been slow productivity, I guess, all considered, that they would had sell them anyhow, at least is small numbers. My take is that there are other problems, impossible to say which. The most immediate and natural assumption is a combination of reliability issues AND that SMEE seems to have abandoned the project.
There is not 90nm SSX600 series, it always has been the SSA600/20. I saw a graph and they had sold their I-line and KrF scanners to some clients. The 90nm SSA600 scanner, my guess the biggest buyer is the Chinese military, even the one in the 2011 paper with a resolution 110nm and 50 WPH looks too much of a killer machine to no be used in military chip production.

At the end of the day is the same issue Canon have with ArF lithography and Nikon with EUV lithography, why to put so much money in the development of a tool when everybody is going to buy from the competition. If you put SMEE and ASML in direct competition, fabs are going to prefer to buy from the stablished supplier, even if SMEE scanners have decent performance.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
To my understanding what the guy hpvc is saying that if you go the public available information (from 10 years ago) you find that it use a underpower 20W ArF DUV laser when ASML use a 60W Arf laser, has an 0.75NA lens system limiting the resolution when ASML can reach 0.9NA, is single stage with a disappointing MMO and low acceleration when ASML stage are dual (can do metrology), precise and fast. All of that translate to very disappointing WPH. My personal opinion hpvc is extrapolating that information to today to make an assessment.
I say that a lot has change from 10 years ago, U-Precision wafer stages are more precise, faster and dual stage. Rslaser subsystems are much more powerful. China CAS and Guowang Optical have develop better lenses and lens systems, they have better and more precise fabrication tools and so on.
They have reached the same level of ASML? I don't know, but they are in a much much better position than 10 years ago IMHO.
As I’ve said with EUV, the optics for SMEE’s earlier ArFi prototypes is not a key constraint. Lower NA follows lower laser power. Low NA to high NA optical design is not a technically challenging or novel problem. It’s just that employing high NA with low laser power doesn’t make any sense because you are constrained by the photon counts of a lower power light source.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
Unfortunately SMEE is a very secretive company, even for Chinese standards. There are no official statements, no public roadmap, no financial statements, no official revenue and sales information. Even SMEE's size and number of employee is not known officially. There is just their website with many stale pages, and a wild sea of rumors and half-infos.

SMEE has no obligation to publicly release their financial statements, roadmaps, and anything in regards to the company itself. They aren’t a publicly traded company. Try getting the financial statements or their roadmaps of private Western companies of similar size and industry. See how well that works.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
Looks like everybody is jumping the boat to UV-LED
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


There is not 90nm SSX600 series, it always has been the SSA600/20. I saw a graph and they had sold their I-line and KrF scanners to some clients. The 90nm SSA600 scanner, my guess the biggest buyer is the Chinese military, even the one in the 2011 paper with a resolution 110nm and 50 WPH looks too much of a killer machine to no be used in military chip production.

At the end of the day is the same issue Canon have with ArF lithography and Nikon with EUV lithography, why to put so much money in the development of a tool when everybody is going to buy from the competition. If you put SMEE and ASML in direct competition, fabs are going to prefer to buy from the stablished supplier, even if SMEE scanners have decent performance.
Have the Chinese companies not yet gotten the memo that the United States have so loudly repeated that they will ensure that all highly sophisticated IC chip manufacturing equipment provided to China by American companies and those of its allies will be banned from sale to Chinese companies?
 

european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
SMEE has no obligation to publicly release their financial statements, roadmaps, and anything in regards to the company itself. They aren’t a publicly traded company. Try getting the financial statements or their roadmaps of private Western companies of similar size and industry. See how well that works.

In Europe practically all companies, not only listed ones, should prepare an annual financial statement and send to competent authorities that makes it available upon request to the public. Usually you pay a small fee to access financial statement of a specific company. Is quite common to do this to check some customer, supplier, etc.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
In Europe practically all companies, not only listed ones, should prepare an annual financial statement and send to competent authorities that makes it available upon request to the public. Usually you pay a small fee to access financial statement of a specific company. Is quite common to do this to check some customer, supplier, etc.

And have you asked any American companies? I don’t see why you expect Chinese companies to be following European laws.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top