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N+2 and N7 seem broadly comparable.
Chinese semiconductor industry
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coolieno99
Junior Member
Even though the following video(English subtitle) is about wafer fab ecosystem and Kingsemi(China wafer fab tool supplier), it has an interesting illustration of a Gigaphoton EUV Tin targetting system. It could be this device what Japan wants to sell to China, since Gigaphoton is excluded as a supplier to ASML.
Make sure your Youtube caption option is enable to see English captions
It will be nice if they sell. It may happen, but China needs to go into the relation with both eyes wide open. Japan is a protectorate of the US. They are already sanctioning sales of composite materials for the MC-21 at the US's behest for example. I think it is good for Chinese factories to have a mix of equipment which includes Japanese equipment in order to have the best prices. China must not allow the monopoly in EUV to continue. So I think they should increase Japanese equipment purchases to have a mix of tools vendors. That would make them more sanctions resistant (even if not sanctions proof) and will allow the price of equipment to come down. The monopoly doesn't help anyone in the semiconductor sector. But in the medium term China needs to have its own tools industry.
Hi gelgoog,
So what's the deal with Gigaphoton presence in China if they can't sell their LPP, from my perspective they had form a partnership and is waiting for the Biden administration. Japan under a new PM is looking for its interest, as Trump himself bluntly told a group of journalist yesterday, that every nation should follow what he had done for him AMERICA FIRST for them their national interest.
Worryingly, most of the electronic components are purchased or processed from countries and regions such as Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, and Taiwan ... they are all allies, friends or puppets of America. If political, economic, and military conflict broke out between the US and China, they would obey the orders from the Americans and isolate China.
Self-sufficiency is better than buying.
Self-sufficiency is better than buying.
Hi FangYuan,
Worried not, China had just complete the list of domestic equipment for 28nm node, the only nation to do so, their next target is 14nm hopefully by late 2021 or early 2022 then 7nm late 2022 to early 2023. That's the road map, it may change depends on any breakthrough or setback it might encounter. So the urgency is there and no amount of American policy reset will change that.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
EDA is probably the segment of Semi that china is closest to achieve self sufficiency. In a way paradox since China's EDA is so underdeveloped. But most of Synapsis and Cadence engineer are chinese, given money and once in lifetime opportunity,they will jump the ships. And since it is software only with no hardware bottle neck. From Nikkei
"We are seeing more and more people who previously worked with big U.S. chip design tool companies joining startups because they think it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity," said a source from a China-based chip developer and Synopsys client.
"Previously very few people would want to start up a chip design tool company, because it's a very niche market already dominated by huge players, but now they see growing customer demands for local software in China for the very first time."
China aims to shake US grip on chip design tools
Synopsys and Cadence veterans join local startups amid Beijing tech push
Chinese startups are recruiting from Synopsys and Cadence in bid to break the American grip on chip design tools. (Source photos by AP)
CHENG TING-FANG and LAULY LI, Nikkei staff writersNovember 25, 2020 11:58 JST
TAIPEI -- Veteran engineers and high-level executives are leaving top U.S. chip design toolmakers for Chinese rivals as Beijing looks to break America's near monopoly on this key segment of the semiconductor industry.
Three Chinese startups established since September last year were founded by or have hired executives and engineers from Synopsys and Cadence Design Systems of the U.S., the world's two biggest makers of electronic design automation (EDA) tools, as such software is known.
These startups include Nanjing-based X-Epic, Shanghai Hejian Industrial Software, and Hefei-based Advanced Manufacturing EDA Co., or Amedac, in which Synopsys owns a stake.
The push to recruit U.S. chip tool talent comes as Washington's crackdown on Huawei Technologies in China's chipmaking ecosystem, including in EDA tools, which are used to design integrated circuits, printed circuit boards and other electronic systems.
America has long dominated the segment, with Synopsys, Cadence, Mentor Graphics and Ansys controlling some 90% of the global market for EDA tools. Mentor was taken over by Siemens in 2017 but maintains extensive research and development operations in the U.S. These four companies own much of the intellectual property needed for chip development, and count the world's top chip developers as clients, including Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Micron and Huawei.
China's own EDA tools industry, by contrast, has been largely neglected until recently. Its two main homegrown players, state-owned Empyrean Software founded in 2009, and Beijing-based Cellixsoft, in 2002, are still unable to match the offerings of Synopsys and Cadence. Jinan-based Primarius Technologies, founded by former a senior Cadence executive in 2010, is likewise still struggling to catch up to its American rivals.
A wake-up call came last year when the U.S. Department of Commerce banned Huawei, the world's biggest telecom equipment maker, from receiving software updates and technical support from American EDA tool makers without U.S. approval.
This move the capability of Huawei's chip design arm Hisilicon Technologies, as close cooperation with EDA tool providers is essential given the increasing complexity of chipmaking processes, and spurred China to act.
"We are seeing more and more people who previously worked with big U.S. chip design tool companies joining startups because they think it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity," said a source from a China-based chip developer and Synopsys client.
"Previously very few people would want to start up a chip design tool company, because it's a very niche market already dominated by huge players, but now they see growing customer demands for local software in China for the very first time."
"We are seeing more and more people who previously worked with big U.S. chip design tool companies joining startups because they think it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity," said a source from a China-based chip developer and Synopsys client.
"Previously very few people would want to start up a chip design tool company, because it's a very niche market already dominated by huge players, but now they see growing customer demands for local software in China for the very first time."
China aims to shake US grip on chip design tools
Synopsys and Cadence veterans join local startups amid Beijing tech push
Chinese startups are recruiting from Synopsys and Cadence in bid to break the American grip on chip design tools. (Source photos by AP)
CHENG TING-FANG and LAULY LI, Nikkei staff writersNovember 25, 2020 11:58 JST
TAIPEI -- Veteran engineers and high-level executives are leaving top U.S. chip design toolmakers for Chinese rivals as Beijing looks to break America's near monopoly on this key segment of the semiconductor industry.
Three Chinese startups established since September last year were founded by or have hired executives and engineers from Synopsys and Cadence Design Systems of the U.S., the world's two biggest makers of electronic design automation (EDA) tools, as such software is known.
These startups include Nanjing-based X-Epic, Shanghai Hejian Industrial Software, and Hefei-based Advanced Manufacturing EDA Co., or Amedac, in which Synopsys owns a stake.
The push to recruit U.S. chip tool talent comes as Washington's crackdown on Huawei Technologies in China's chipmaking ecosystem, including in EDA tools, which are used to design integrated circuits, printed circuit boards and other electronic systems.
America has long dominated the segment, with Synopsys, Cadence, Mentor Graphics and Ansys controlling some 90% of the global market for EDA tools. Mentor was taken over by Siemens in 2017 but maintains extensive research and development operations in the U.S. These four companies own much of the intellectual property needed for chip development, and count the world's top chip developers as clients, including Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Micron and Huawei.
China's own EDA tools industry, by contrast, has been largely neglected until recently. Its two main homegrown players, state-owned Empyrean Software founded in 2009, and Beijing-based Cellixsoft, in 2002, are still unable to match the offerings of Synopsys and Cadence. Jinan-based Primarius Technologies, founded by former a senior Cadence executive in 2010, is likewise still struggling to catch up to its American rivals.
A wake-up call came last year when the U.S. Department of Commerce banned Huawei, the world's biggest telecom equipment maker, from receiving software updates and technical support from American EDA tool makers without U.S. approval.
This move the capability of Huawei's chip design arm Hisilicon Technologies, as close cooperation with EDA tool providers is essential given the increasing complexity of chipmaking processes, and spurred China to act.
"We are seeing more and more people who previously worked with big U.S. chip design tool companies joining startups because they think it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity," said a source from a China-based chip developer and Synopsys client.
"Previously very few people would want to start up a chip design tool company, because it's a very niche market already dominated by huge players, but now they see growing customer demands for local software in China for the very first time."
coolieno99
Junior Member
Actually China is in the driver's seat in this situation. Gigaphoton's one and only customer for this device is ASML. But ASML turned down Gigaphoton's offer, making their EUV light source a total business loss. China can take advantage of this situation by buying couple machines and include the patents for it (so they can make it them for themselves). Both sides gain from this, Gigaphoton recoup their R&D losses, and China speed up the development of their 13.5nm EUV litho tool.
Well, since ASML bought a controlling stake on Cymer what else did they expect? They would be better off selling it to either Canon or Nikon.
Good Video!
Gigaphoton has a good LPP which generates about 250W.
According to a person who works at SMEE, CAS has not yet decided on which Light Source to use in the EUVL.
This means that they are studying different types of Light Sources, LPP or DPP etc.
I would not be surprised if China goes ahead and purchases this Light Source from Gigaphoton for evaluation. They will probably use this Light Source to produce a Prototype EUVL as this will speed up the general development of EUVL in China. Even better if they can get the technology transfer for it.
At the same time the CAS will continue parallel development of its own Light Sources. This is a common dual track strategy in China.
Of course whether Japan is able to sell this depends on getting approval from its "Master" the USA.
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