China's semiconductor progress is not as ahead as the optimists think and not as backward as the pessimists think.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
- Start date
- Status
Regardless the state, from my POV they are progressing an outstanding speed. In 2012-2014 if you ask me if their electronics-semiconductor industry would be able to survive a ban on chips, equipment and EDA, I would have said "no way", but now I feel more confident, that they are not only able to survive but even probably thrive in such hostile geopolitical environment with the U.S.
Of course this hostile environment is stressing companies at the top of the supply chain that have to scramble to reshuffle to secure their suppliers, but hey, is easier to start from 60-70% than from 0%.
Of course this hostile environment is stressing companies at the top of the supply chain that have to scramble to reshuffle to secure their suppliers, but hey, is easier to start from 60-70% than from 0%.
i always said this thing. China was lucky to escape that crucial time period not only in semiconductor but overall high end industry development.
would have been disastrous if US put same sanctions in 2000-2010 decade.
sanctions in 2022 ? HAHAHAHAHA. its too late now. horse left the stable.
Tuojing Technology's revenue in the first half of the year increased by 365% and turned losses into profits
On August 27, Tuojing Technology, a leader in thin film deposition equipment, released its 2022 semi-annual report. The company achieved operating income of 523 million yuan, a year-on-year increase of 364.87%; net profit attributable to shareholders of listed companies was about 108 million yuan, a year-on-year turnaround.
The company said that operating income increased by 364.87% compared with the same period of the previous year, mainly due to: benefiting from domestic semiconductors The good development trend of the industry and the expansion of domestic wafer factories have driven the growth of demand for semiconductor equipment. As a major domestic manufacturer of semiconductor thin film deposition equipment, the company continues to maintain high-intensity investment in research and development, product competitiveness and customer recognition continue to improve, and sales orders continue to grow. During the reporting period, the company's core product PECVD equipment Realized revenue of 467 million yuan, an increase of 345.21% over the same period of the previous year; SACVD equipment realized revenue of 41 million yuan, and ALD equipment realized revenue of 80 million yuan.
The net profit attributable to shareholders of the listed company increased by RMB 128 million over the same period of the previous year, and the net profit attributable to shareholders of the listed company after deducting non-recurring gains and losses increased by RMB 117 million over the same period of the previous year. Department: 1) the company's current operating income increased by 411 million yuan compared with the same period of the previous year, an increase of 364.87%; 2) the current gross profit margin 46.76%, an increase of about 8.42 percentage points compared with 38.34% in the same period of the previous year; 3) the company's expenses during the period The rate has dropped significantly year-on-year. The net cash flow from operating activities increased by RMB 294 million over the same period of the previous year, which was mainly due to the substantial increase in the company's operating income and the continued good performance of payment collection.
The company said that operating income increased by 364.87% compared with the same period of the previous year, mainly due to: benefiting from domestic semiconductors The good development trend of the industry and the expansion of domestic wafer factories have driven the growth of demand for semiconductor equipment. As a major domestic manufacturer of semiconductor thin film deposition equipment, the company continues to maintain high-intensity investment in research and development, product competitiveness and customer recognition continue to improve, and sales orders continue to grow. During the reporting period, the company's core product PECVD equipment Realized revenue of 467 million yuan, an increase of 345.21% over the same period of the previous year; SACVD equipment realized revenue of 41 million yuan, and ALD equipment realized revenue of 80 million yuan.
The net profit attributable to shareholders of the listed company increased by RMB 128 million over the same period of the previous year, and the net profit attributable to shareholders of the listed company after deducting non-recurring gains and losses increased by RMB 117 million over the same period of the previous year. Department: 1) the company's current operating income increased by 411 million yuan compared with the same period of the previous year, an increase of 364.87%; 2) the current gross profit margin 46.76%, an increase of about 8.42 percentage points compared with 38.34% in the same period of the previous year; 3) the company's expenses during the period The rate has dropped significantly year-on-year. The net cash flow from operating activities increased by RMB 294 million over the same period of the previous year, which was mainly due to the substantial increase in the company's operating income and the continued good performance of payment collection.
I have to agree with the above post that some folks are too optimist about China's current progress in semiconductor. If there was a complete decoupling, China's consumer electronic industry would be in a very bad place. First, the benchmark of all the China's cpu such as loongson, phytum, zhaoxin all points to them being low-mid tier. For example the highest geekbench multi-core scores I have seen them hit are in the 2000-3000 range while an apple m1 arm would hit 10,000. Second, we hear about 7nm-14nm break thrus, but I don't believe they are being produce in any sufficient quantity as the fabs for most Chinese computer CPUs are still foreign. The only mainstream cpu I have seen produce by smic was a mid tier Kirin for Huawei.
It will be a long shot, even for Biren, to replace Nvidia. “Chinese GPU start-ups are not a match for Nvidia and AMD,” said Sravan Kundojjala, a senior analyst at Strategy Analytics. “Even a seasoned GPU player like AMD is struggling to compete with Nvidia in data centres.”
One of Nvidia’s key advantages is its unified device architecture, a parallel programming model, which the company began to develop in 2006. It has been widely adopted by developers as an easy way to speed up compute-intensive applications, said Kundojjala.
As such, those who want to compete against Nvidia have to create an entire software ecosystem, which is extremely difficult.
Nevertheless, there are some people willing to bet on China’s long-term ability to shake off the likes of Nvidia.
It will be a long shot, even for Biren, to replace Nvidia. “Chinese GPU start-ups are not a match for Nvidia and AMD,” said Sravan Kundojjala, a senior analyst at Strategy Analytics. “Even a seasoned GPU player like AMD is struggling to compete with Nvidia in data centres.”
One of Nvidia’s key advantages is its unified device architecture, a parallel programming model, which the company began to develop in 2006. It has been widely adopted by developers as an easy way to speed up compute-intensive applications, said Kundojjala.
As such, those who want to compete against Nvidia have to create an entire software ecosystem, which is extremely difficult.
Nevertheless, there are some people willing to bet on China’s long-term ability to shake off the likes of Nvidia.
well Bro to be honest, who can't be optimistic coming from a low expectation, in 2016 SMIC had just started mass producing 28nm chips, now its 7nm, that's a 3 generation leap from 6 years ago, it's amazing. The reason I join this forum to know more and how China had overcome such technical and crucial CORE technology.
SMIC 7nm mass production is an inflection point in this tech war, China is a generation behind and IF we based the tech development cycle of SMIC, next year we may see N+3 5nm DUVL chip and 2024 mass produce it, Liang Mong Song had the tool he needed in ASML NXT 2050i, and I will NOT be surprise when SMEE/CETC introduced its EUVL in 2025 that the core tech and materials for the 3nm is production ready as they used the SSRF as a research tool. Ohhh! another thing we have to look what Liang Mong Song is doing, so far NO news is Good news, it means he is happy and in good spirit as he is busy researching both the 5nm and 3nm chip as he stated in his dramatic aborted resignation letter to the SMIC board.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
The article is from Linette Lopez, known China-basher. Apparently she's emphasizing how you need the "world" to make computer chips and China is going alone hence why the doom and gloom for China. Well that's because the US is excluding China so what choice does China have? Of course that's the typical bull coming from the West that is of their own making. Like with innovation why tell China how to be innovative when they fear Chinese discovery and invention? What she's really trying to do as with what the chip ban was aiming to do in the first place is make China surrender to all US demands. Now make it not look like extortion by the US and make China think the US is giving China good advice for its own best interest. It's no coincidence either with the news that Biden is easing some aspect of tech bans so China follows US tech standards because China going its own way is not bad for China. It's bad for the US.
Linette Lopez must be a Game of Thrones fan. In an episode of House of the Dragon a couple weeks ago. The King is trying to make his daughter get married for the interests of his House. She's refusing his every turn so he's given the advice that he has to make it look like it was her choice.
Last edited:
You're confusing two different concepts. When you say AMD is struggling to compete with Nvidia in data centers, you're talking about competing in a free market on level-playing field. Nvidia has the edge because of its more established ecosystem. When you're arguing about Biren or other Chinese startups against Nvidia or AMD, you're talking about replacing Nvidia or AMD because they would be unavailable in the Chinese market due to sanctions. Biren may be in a disadvantaged position against Nvidia in a free market, but that's not what we're talking about here.
It appears that you simply haven't missed the discussion in this thread over the last two weeks.
Sir the reason why I'm optimistic because people like her is panicking...lol You just have to laugh when they wrote crazy analysis with a lot of Copium and Hopium, belittle everything Chinese and get very upset, anxious and angry when surprises by China achievement...lol
Banning chips for Chinese consumers electronics companies would mean a global shortages of computers, dishwashers, refrigerators etc. At the height of the pandemic, many computers and printers were selling 50% to 100% more than regular prices. I think people just underestimate the importance of China being the world biggest manufacture superpower. If the West wanted to commit suicidal bans, then it is up to them to suffer hyperinflation in much more categories than just food and energy.
As for China, only smartphones and computers that require more advance chips would suffer a downgrade. Most other products would be just fine. In addition, AI chips or GPU are less difficult to make than CPU chips and usually require at least one generation less advance chips than CPU chips. 7nm chips are more than enough to satisfy the requirement of most advance GPU chips. It is software ecosystem for GPU that is probably needed more time to adopt but the US has left Chinese companies no choice and self reliance is a must not a choice.
As for China, only smartphones and computers that require more advance chips would suffer a downgrade. Most other products would be just fine. In addition, AI chips or GPU are less difficult to make than CPU chips and usually require at least one generation less advance chips than CPU chips. 7nm chips are more than enough to satisfy the requirement of most advance GPU chips. It is software ecosystem for GPU that is probably needed more time to adopt but the US has left Chinese companies no choice and self reliance is a must not a choice.
- Status