Chinese semiconductor industry

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PopularScience

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I expect the next step will be the ban of TSMC advanced foundry services for Biren, Baidu, Alibaba and siblings. It is a necessary step to avoid that the banning of NVIDIA and AMD backfires hugely, as many people here have already pointed out.

Banning TSMC and Samsung for serving Chinese customers is one of the main reasons of Chip 4 Alliance existence and the only thing, together with the banning of ASML EUV, that can be effective in forcing, by 2024-2025, a 2-3 generations gap between Chinese and Western companies.

I really hope that SMIC new 7nm capacity will be big enough, because very soon it will be greatly needed.

After US killed the future of AMAT, LAM Research and in general of US semi equipment in Chinese market, this will mark the end of NVIDIA too. But US administartion seems to have already accepted and even embraced the idea of total decoupling in semiconductor and digital market.
TSMC to shutdown EUV in order to save energy. Semiconductor winter is coming...

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mrandolph

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Just in time for Biren to sell its BR100. As the tweet says probably the next US move would be to ban TSMC from fabbing Biren's chips. Hopefully by that time SMIC could fab Biren's chips

Are these chips already produced and shipped? Or can the US do a last minute ban and the Taiwanese will honor it? When Huawei was banned at TSMC they were given a 6 months grace period.

Anyway. I am sure it has crossed the minds of Biren that they were in the risk of being banned at TSMC. So what is the backup plan?
 

ansy1968

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"The company currently has more than 80 EUVs"

Really??? That's impressive!!!!!!!

Edit:
With that cost who can afford their 3nm chip? Apple? in the current economic downturn? maybe god is on China side, this may give the time needed for SMIC to catch up.
 

european_guy

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"The company currently has more than 80 EUVs"

Really??? That's impressive!!!!!!!

Edit:

I tried to find an alternating source for this info and stumbled across this Bloomberg article

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And among other things it says: "ASML is investigating the possibility of increasing shipments to 90 of its EUVs in 2025, from an original target of 70 units"

Now everybody is buying / planning to buy EUV (Intel, Samsung, TSMC, Micron, etc), but by 2025 /2026 ASML will face a serious overcapacity issue because the fabs now planned will be already built, and very probably there will be a huge overcapacity in semiconductor market and semi equipment makers will feel the pain the most, as always happens: machinery manufacturers are the first to suffer a customer's market downturn because investments in new capacity are the firsts to be scrapped /delayed.

In view of this, it is strategic critical for ASML to keep the gates with China open, or it will pay a very high price after 2025-2026. I guess in ASML they have this thing very clear, and is one of the reasons why although the ultra-aggressive pressure, US have still not succeeded to force ASML banning DUV in China.
 

ansy1968

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I tried to find an alternating source for this info and stumbled across this Bloomberg article

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

And among other things it says: "ASML is investigating the possibility of increasing shipments to 90 of its EUVs in 2025, from an original target of 70 units"

Now everybody is buying / planning to buy EUV (Intel, Samsung, TSMC, Micron, etc), but by 2025 /2026 ASML will face a serious overcapacity issue because the fabs now planned will be already built, and very probably there will be a huge overcapacity in semiconductor market and semi equipment makers will feel the pain the most, as always happens: machinery manufacturers are the first to suffer a customer's market downturn because investments in new capacity are the firsts to be scrapped /delayed.

In view of this, it is strategic critical for ASML to keep the gates with China open, or it will pay a very high price after 2025-2026. I guess in ASML they have this thing very clear, and is one of the reasons why although the ultra-aggressive pressure, US have still not succeeded to force ASML banning DUV in China.
They just waiting for SMEE EUVL to show up and gave them the reason to sell the older NXT3400C, in this way everybody will be happy as Intel is the first customer of HI NA EUVL. ;)
 

european_guy

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They just waiting for SMEE EUVL to show up and gave them the reason to sell the older NXT3400C, in this way everybody will be happy as Intel is the first customer of HI NA EUVL. ;)

Yes, this is a very astute comment.

A localized EUV machine in China for 2035/2026 could be a bless in disguise for ASML, because it could persuade Americans to remove the ban on EUV...

..but this would first require the prerequisite that US administration acts in a rationale and long-term way....and this is not the case.

US now is a raging bull, it attacks furiously and blindly whenever see something move. To win against a raging bull you need to act smartly and be quick and agile to deceive and jump around it. Never confront it head on!
 

ansy1968

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Yes, this is a very astute comment.

A localized EUV machine in China for 2035/2026 could be a bless in disguise for ASML, because it could persuade Americans to remove the ban on EUV...

..but this would first require the prerequisite that US administration acts in a rationale and long-term way....and this is not the case.

US now is a raging bull, it attacks furiously and blindly whenever see something move. To win against a raging bull you need to act smartly and be quick and agile to deceive and jump around it. Never confront it head on!
And it benefit both side, aside from selling older EUVL, ASML is not afraid of competition, it will up its game selling better iteration as they put more money on R&D instead of stock buy back. ;)
 

Pkp88

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Just to be blunt despite all the talk in this thread we remain yet to see China come up with a domestic DUV capability. If they had one there’s no reason to keep it so quiet … there’s plenty of demand.
 
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