Chinese semiconductor industry

manqiangrexue said:

That's a weak and meaningless non-response. And having such a powerful wall is still much better than your "blatant IP infringement" idea which basically equates to inviting others and providing them with the information to sue you when they have none. This is a stupidity found nowhere in the world.

Also, this "wall" only needs to be a stopgap to hurry China's entry into self-sufficient high end lithography. It is not a forever solution. When China eventually wants to compete with ASML in lithograph sales, the product must not contain IP infringements, but that is a longer term discussion.

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what's problem by paying sue. As long they can play with litigation, they can delay few years. in between they can generate profit. And further their R&D This how MNC play including Huawei. I guess you didn't read much how this big company playing with patent.

manqiangrexue said:

Another weak and meaningless non-response. I said right now, the trade/tech war helps China close the gap both economically and technologically. You have no rebuttal to this truth so you responded with "We'll see." And some side-commentary that doesn't engage my point.

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China always want to close gap with western counterparts there is no doubt that either sooner or later. I'm never denied about that. Im only said tech/economy war still ongoing. there is no conclusion yet. There is no point winning battle end up losing war. this is apply for both side.

mderfox said:

OMG. why the need start with fab? in order to gather evidence, need to start with mapping Evidence of Use (EoU). they can infer with suppliers or final product by reverse engineering. As long evidence is strong, they can bring to authorities(court) to tear up EUVL on fab to prove their claim. Of course they need independent parties to validate their claim.

i give u link for further reading.

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This is why you don't post things with buzzwords that you don't understand. Everything stated there depends on the accusing party legally obtaining either a copy of the machine to disassemble or getting online information such as blueprints or manuals, none of which will be available for a domestic only Chinese EUV machine. Nowhere on that article does it say you can make inferences from suppliers and bring the authorities to tear up a machine that you did not buy or own.

Normally, your English is shoddy, but I think in this case, it was almost intentionally shoddy because you did not understand the article you cited and you did not know what to write. You only wanted to throw in some buzzwords with some vague (and incorrect) language to make others think you know what you're talking about. In short, your article supports the counter-argument against you: if you can't get a machine and the online blueprints/manuals are not available, you don't have a path to sue.

mderfox said:

what's problem by paying sue. As long they can play with litigation, they can delay few years. in between they can generate profit. And further their R&D This how MNC play including Huawei. I guess you didn't read much how this big company playing with patent.

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The problem is you don't do this if you don't have to. Obviously, if you get sued, you defend yourself in court and pay if you need to, but when others can't find the evidence to sue you, YOU DON'T PROVIDE IT. Common sense.

mderfox said:

China always want to close gap with western counterparts there is no doubt that either sooner or later. I'm never denied about that. Im only said tech/economy war still ongoing. there is no conclusion yet.

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No conclusion yet doesn't mean that you can micro-analyze small points while ignoring general trends. The general trend so far is that the pace at which China is closing the gap with the US has been hastened. "there is no conclusion yet" is your attempt to escape a conversation that you started. We can leave it at that; if you wanna talk about soybeans and details of the trade deal, then I will show you this bigger picture every time.

mderfox said:

There is no point winning battle end up losing war. this is apply for both side.

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You are talking about the little battles like soybeans and crap but China is thinking about the war of overtaking the US.

China vow to be self sufficient in Tech and other science and technology. Government support and coordination is crucial in this tech war They have to play leading role
“Science and technology should be self-reliant as a strategic support for national development,” said a party statement. It promised to “accelerate the building of a science and technology power” but gave no details.
China's leaders vow to become self-reliant technology power



JOE McDONALD
Thu, October 29, 2020, 5:40 AM CDT


BEIJING (AP) — China’s leaders are vowing to make their country a self-reliant “technology power” as a feud with Washington cuts access to U.S. computer chips and other high-tech components, hampering Beijing’s industrial ambitions.
Leaders of the ruling Communist Party made the announcement Thursday after a meeting to draft a development blueprint for the state-dominated economy over the next five years.
President Xi Jinping’s government is trying to limit damage from the Trump administration’s curbs on technology sales to China in a fight over security and spying. Those threaten to disrupt plans to create Chinese companies able to compete in telecoms, biotech and other fields, which communist leaders see as a path to prosperity and global influence.
“Science and technology should be self-reliant as a strategic support for national development,” said a party statement. It promised to “accelerate the building of a science and technology power” but gave no details.

mderfox said:

Who said china only need patent if they only need use domestically?? Do you know what patent law is? Even China have patent Law and come 4th amendment
source;

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EUVL machine not LEGO.


Up to you everyone can have different opinions. Only egoistic people demand his view is right.



Tech War, Trade War and Geopolitics War is Game. If China can't stand the heat get out from kitchen. So far China also step up in Geopolitics. Increase military spending, involved in border conflict in Himalaya, South China Sea etc. Of course winner take all. They also playing Game. So nobody fault, its National interest above all.


I think you are ignorant. Patent Law is effective if they filing in related country. Nobody can't escape if got caught.



As far I'm seeing China giving so much on US demand.
1. Patent protection.
2. US company access to China market.
3. Buying US soya bean.

what did US giving to China??? only stop tariff increase so far what can I saw.

In Geopolitics there is no fair. All country playing same game rule. As long the didn't touch other country redline is fair game. Remember china block Google and Facebook operate in China on ground national security's. US also did same thing on Huawei using national security. As far I know US lobby on block Huawei in country like NATO or they have military or intelligent sharing on that country. They are using very powerful tools because Huawei involve with telecommunications.

The same with China, demand domestic OS on government PC by 2022 on the ground National security and I don't see Microsoft screaming by stating unfair.

Short story China doesn't have much bargains power to deter US from do whatever they want to do.

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China is not going to infringe ASML's patent. China herself is one of the largest generator of patents.


China will just make modification and redesign the ASML litho tool to work around the patent. This is a very common practice in industry and it happens all the time. Nothing special.

Here's another source of EUV that was developed in 2017. It uses a free electron laser to generate EUV.

mderfox said:

OMG. why the need start with fab? in order to gather evidence, need to start with mapping Evidence of Use (EoU). they can infer with suppliers or final product by reverse engineering. As long evidence is strong, they can bring to authorities(court) to tear up EUVL on fab to prove their claim. Of course they need independent parties to validate their claim.
...

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The suppliers are all in China. How can you tell by the final product how the light was generated? Simple fact is you can't.
If there were foreign suppliers China wouldn't have to make their own components to begin with.

I believe that if China develops a EUVL using the DPP as a Light Source, there will be no Patent issues.

The ASML EUV uses the LPP as its light source and the entire machine as a result is significantly different.
The DPP EUVL machine would require a different design to its collector or projection mirrors due to a different source light. As a result the entire machine would be different and there will be no patent issues.

Even the ASML EUV uses Projection mirrors built by German company Carl Zeiss.
Gigaphoton of Japan makes LPP EUV light sources and it has not yet been sued by Cymer. Unfortunately Gigaphoton will never be allowed to supply ASML as it will use Cymer products.

The original DPP was developed by a German Company called Xtreme Technologies which only managed to develop 50W power output from it. This was insufficient for mass production.
ASML then decide to go with the LPP light source and bought Cymer USA. This means ASMLs patents only involve a EUVL using LPP.

Xtreme technologies was then bought by Japanese company Ushio and eventually Xtreme was shut down. Ushio now has ceased developing the DPP technologies. It has moved on to a new method called LDP. Its latest product which is a Photomask Inspector uses the LDP as its source light.

Harbin Institute with its DPP Light Source which generates output of 150W is the only producer of DPP in the world currently. 150W is sufficient for High Volume Production.

In any case even if China was to develop a LPP EUVL, it would be 100% made in China using locally developed technologies which would be very different from the foreign technologies in every way.

Hi WTAN,

Will SMEE still proceed with DPP ? or they can design their EUVL interchangeable with both DPP and LPP just like earlier ASML plan?

ansy1968 said:

Hi WTAN,

Will SMEE still proceed with DPP ? or they can design their EUVL interchangeable with both DPP and LPP just like earlier ASML plan?

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I believe China was planning to go with DPP all along to avoid patent issues.
But now with the ASML EUVL being banned for sale in China due to Waseenar and Paris Agreement as well as the Tech War with the US, the whole equation has been changed.
I would say maybe 50% DPP or LPP. I depends on factors like cost of production, yield, effectiveness etc.
The Chinese Academy of Sciences as well as its Partners like SMIC etc will eventually decide which route to go.

WTAN said:

I believe China was planning to go with DPP all along to avoid patent issues.
But now with the ASML EUVL being banned for sale in China due to Waseenar and Paris Agreement as well as the Tech War with the US, the whole equation has been changed.
I would say maybe 50% DPP or LPP. I depends on factors like cost of production, yield, effectiveness etc.
The Chinese Academy of Sciences as well as its Partners like SMIC etc will eventually decide which route to go.

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What does the Paris Agreement has to do with exporting EUV? China is part of the Paris Agreement.

mderfox said:

There is no impenetrable wall in the world.

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When the wall is penetrated ( or allowed to be penetrated ) then China is way further ahead, so don't worry.