I think the claim is really hard to independently verify since JHICC has probably move to super-secret mode, but it could be the case the companies are moving to sanction proofing their products.
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Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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Lol no problem, So U.S. export controls are basically toothless with ASML with the exception of EUV? That will mean that the United states has not control over the most critical technology in the semiconductor industry, because if ASML is still allowed to do business with JHICC that is the case. I am missing something?
JHICC case is more extreme case because of their espionage charge indictment.
For SMIC and others even with the US government attempt to disrupt, there are no limitation at the moment. With exception of EUV related tools, suppliers could pretty much ship without restriction. I think the Uncle Sam is catching on and this is why you see many lobbying to clarify/extend the blockage to include 14nm and maybe even 28nm.
American WFE are under more restriction than asml. American WFE vendor has to apply for approval for the most advanced equipments. Asml is only limited on EUV and any modules where majority of parts is made in the US. For asml, they do not need to worry about components that are sourced in Europe. For example,parts built by Berlinerglas (bought by asml) would not be limited by the US export control. at least this is my understanding.
Many WFE suppliers including mine are preparing by moving parts warehouse or building refurbished parts factory in Asia to hedge any tightening sanctions. I know some EDA company are even setting up shop in China and “recoding” their EDA product to differentiate from their US made version. The thinking is they can sell what they “developed” outside of the US/in China. I’d say there quite a bit of gray area in the restriction….I mean, can’t restrict exports when the product is already in China, right?
I think American WFE suppliers understand they will lose marketshare to new competitors in China. No one is willing to simply give up marketshare…lose the battle without even a real head-to-head competition. Again, I’m sure everyone is looking for way to circumvent the section…but mostly under the radar (no one talks about this openly. Actually pretty similar to what you guys are saying about SMEE flying under the radar and not drawing attention to themselves.
Hopefully those idiotic politicians whom only recently come to know more about semiconductor industry don’t mess up the global supply chain ecosystem any more than what’s already done.
@hvpc Bro I find that hard to believed! will ASML allow Gigaphoton to power their DUVL while owning Cymer? If that is the case then hypothetically they can sell China an EUVL without restriction since Gigaphoton had develop a 250W LPP.
ASML, Nikon, or Canon don’t decide what laser to put in their scanners. The customer decides what laser to pair with the scanner. If you buy a Canon system or Nikon system you can chose to use Cymer laser or ASML with Gigaphoton. This, my friend, is not hearsay, this is first hand info. But feel free to verify with any of your sources that had purchased scanners before.
With regards to EUV system, I don’t know if Gigaphoton EUV source has been qualified by ASML for use on their EUV scanner since I left the fab before EUV adoption. But my understanding is the restriction on EUV is not based on where its parts is made but more so that it enable leading edge technology. This paragraph is my opinion/speculation.
One more thing to add, as a condition of ASML buying Cymer is that it can’t restrict Nikon/Canon from buying cymer laser and it can’t lock out Gigaphoton from their DUV systems. You can fact check this by researching approval conditions behind asml’s purchase of cymer.
How are SLA structured with different light sources, I assume they can offer first class support if you choose a CYMER light source. But if you choose a different light source you need to manage two company relationships. You see this a lot in software development tooling where they say "They support all sorts of combinations" but if you choose within our software package we can bundle help desk/support into one account and SLA.Here, I fact checked what I said about asml/cymer for y’all:
Its giving you a choice but there is only one excellent choice and the rest is kind of bad or too much of a hassle. Maybe the other option are usable for a transitory period when migrating between software packages.
How are SLA structured with different light sources, I assume they can offer first class support if you choose a CYMER light source. But if you choose a different light source you need to manage two company relationships. You see this a lot in software development tooling where they say "They support all sorts of combinations" but if you choose within our software package we can bundle help desk/support into one account and SLA.
Its giving you a choice but there is only one excellent choice and the rest is kind of bad or too much of a hassle. Maybe the other option are usable for a transitory period when migrating between software packages.
You do realize ASML didn’t buy Cymer until 2013, right? Up to that point, all scanner suppliers can buy laser from anyone, right?
Also, Cymer DUV division operates independently from ASML. Only Cymer EUV Source division is absorbed into ASML (full control by ASML).
Prior to this purchase by ASML, SLA of scanner and SLA of laser are dealt with separately with the scanner supplier and laser supplier. This has always been how the industry operated. So…this didn’t change despite of ASML buying Cymer.
As for EUV scanner, my best guess is since scanner and laser are ASML, it’s likely just one set if SLA with ASML.
Was just wondering, I'm not active in the semi conductor sector but I active in the software world just wondering because having one SLA is usually cheaper then having two separate etc..You do realize ASML didn’t buy Cymer until 2013, right? Up to that point, all scanner suppliers can buy laser from anyone, right?
Also, Cymer DUV division operates independently from ASML. Only Cymer EUV Source division is absorbed into ASML (full control by ASML).
Prior to this purchase by ASML, SLA of scanner and SLA of laser are dealt with separately with the scanner supplier and laser supplier. This has always been how the industry operated. So…this didn’t change despite of ASML buying Cymer.
As for EUV scanner, my best guess is since scanner and laser are ASML, it’s likely just one set if SLA with ASML.
Was just wondering, I'm not active in the semi conductor sector but I active in the software world just wondering because having one SLA is usually cheaper then having two separate etc..
True, if Cymer DUV and ASML are one entity. If that’s the case two SLA instead of one wouldn’t be ideal.
if you think of them as two different companies then two SLA wouldn’t be so strange or difficult to comprehend. Agree?
Agree if they are seen as two different companies then two SLA wouldn't be so strange.True, if Cymer DUV and ASML are one entity. If that’s the case two SLA instead of one wouldn’t be ideal.
if you think of them as two different companies then two SLA wouldn’t be so strange or difficult to comprehend. Agree?
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