Chinese semiconductor industry

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Yes, but isn't the goal here to make competitive chips? If the goal is just to make chips, then what is there left to discuss?
Shouldn't the goals be: have sufficient capacity to supply domestic chipmakers with comparable EUV lithography tools or comparable alternative technology, and be able to utilize these tools in actual chip fabs that can make comparable chips to Samsung / TSMC?

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Not exactly.

The goal first and foremost is to supply Huawei with the chips required to maintain business operations as smooth as possible after their stockpile runs out, in order for Huawei to continue building the 5G base stations.

Getting the competitive chip products out later to wipe out the competition, that goal comes next.

Hendrik_2000 said:

That is not correct take single crystal blade. You manufactured it in tested it in the lab condition It work perfect Then you build the actual engine test it in bench condition It work perfect. Then tested it actual flying condition or nowadays in simulated weather and altitude condition. It does not worked.

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Phead128 said:

You keep on referring to mysterious countries that can do both semiconductors and jet engines. Then you switched to EITHER semicoductor or jet engines. Is China part of this list? since it produced over +300 WS-10 engines and SMIC can make 14nm chips.

Can you name these "very few" countries that can do both semiconductors AND jet engines? (and do it at the very leading edge)

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I guess my statement " Yes, very few countries can do semiconductors and jet engines." was ambiguous. For clarification, the intended meaning was: Very few countries can do semiconductors, AND very few countries can do engines. For semiconductors, there is no single country at the moment that has mastered the entire supply chain, ie Korea and Samsung (arguably US - even though Intel has had trouble getting below 10nm, their chips are still industry leaders for many applications) are world leaders in chip fab, but the Dutch are world leaders in lithography. China would be the first, because it is in a position where it has to, and it has the resources to make it happen, given time.

horse said:

Not exactly.

The goal first and foremost is to supply Huawei with the chips required to maintain business operations as smooth as possible after their stockpile runs out, in order for Huawei to continue building the 5G base stations.

Getting the competitive chip products out later to wipe out the competition, that goal comes next.

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5G base stations might be the most important part of Huawei's business, but their phone segment is also very prestigious and what they are best known for to many people across the world - and they need competitive chips to stay in that business.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

5G base stations might be the most important part of Huawei's business, but their phone segment is also very prestigious and what they are best known for to many people across the world - and they need competitive chips to stay in that business.

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The cell phones are very important.

However, we must keep in mind two things, one is the cell phone not a big profit item, and two is the server segment for Huawei is increasingly more important and should be the biggest profit potential of anything they do. The servers will be part of the cloud computing services Huawei would sell along with the AI services.

So yes, is important to solve the phone problem. A lot of Huawei phones are not top of the line, they do not need the best chips. Inexpensive phones are the ones sold in the developing world, and that is where all Chinese cell phone makers have a complete stranglehold on that market. Read a story before that those Huawei phones in Africa will be launching the HMS Huawei Mobile Services, and maybe their O/S Hongmeng too.

After the 5G standalone networks are built, that is where the big profits can be had, and Huawei is in the servers and the AI too. What is curious is that it is Intel who probably sells those chips to Huawei for their Huawei server products (made with Intel chips inside).

That is why I do not believe in any of these containment of China conspiracy theories, and that the US government does not know what it is doing.

This is not a conversation about semiconductors anymore. It’s a conversation about national egos. Can we get back to substantive discussion?

The author forget to mention SMIC 14nm and its scaling up plan.

from beijingwalker (pakistan defense forum)

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Under the pressure of US sanctions, China’s semiconductor industry is developing rapidly to accommodate soaring domestic demand

I will make this short since it's a bit off topic.
As far as metal superalloys use in jet engines, China has caught up with the West, specifically General Electric (GE), the most advance jet engine manufacturer in the world. The super alloy is nickel-rhenium (single crystal form). Because rhenium is a rare-earth metal both China and GE has been stockpiling rhenium, so they always have it. Having said that, GE is still ahead of China because they are the first to use Ceramic Matrix Composite (CMC) in 1st stage turbine, and probably combustion chamber. CMC has even higher melting point than nickel-rhenium alloy, which means higher operating temperature and therefore higher thrust, making super cruise possible. How's China faring in CMC? China has been involved in research and development in CMC since 2007. They have made CMC ball bearings and placed them in the turbopump of the 2nd stage of Long March 5 rocket. Eventually the J-20 engine (WS-15) will have CMC parts , in order for it to supercruise.

latenlazy said:

This is not a conversation about semiconductors anymore. It’s a conversation about national egos. Can we get back to substantive discussion?

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Everything is interconnected. You need a large number of different technology in order to make semiconductors.

EUVL is easier said than done. Unless can break patent barrier by ASML. I'm not optimistic EUVL in China can be done in few years, my reason is very simple no prototype yet available. Its take 17 years to ASML+(Samsung and TSMC) to produce EUVL form prototype to high volume manufacturing. As long no prototype had ben made, its gonna long time. my generous estimate prototype ± 1-3years.

Compare with EUV, SMEE have huge experience on DUV. According to information in this forum SMIC and Huawei already receive prototype 28nm DUV tools. On short term the biggest bet on China semiconductor is working on DUV with 3D chip stacking.

mderfox said:

EUVL is easier said than done. Unless can break patent barrier by ASML. I'm not optimistic EUVL in China can be done in few years, my reason is very simple no prototype yet available. Its take 17 years to ASML+(Samsung and TSMC) to produce EUVL form prototype to high volume manufacturing. As long no prototype had ben made, its gonna long time. my generous estimate prototype ± 1-3years.

Compare with EUV, SMEE have huge experience on DUV. According to information in this forum SMIC and Huawei already receive prototype 28nm DUV tools. On short term the biggest bet on China semiconductor is working on DUV with 3D chip stacking.

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You do realize a lot of those 17 years was studying the basic physics of how to make it work and developing an adequate light source right? All that work has already been done and is well known now. China doesn’t need to reinvent those 17 years of research, tinkering, and component tech development to assemble their own instrument now.

Peter2018 said:

Everything is interconnected. You need a large number of different technology in order to make semiconductors.

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My point was discussion was veering way off topic.