I think they might be well over stocked in Tianggong chips. It make take some years, and not a few, for these to eventually run out.
Chinese semiconductor industry
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I think they might be well over stocked in Tianggong chips. It make take some years, and not a few, for these to eventually run out.
Not that I know what I am talking about, as I am not an engineer.
But I would assume the basic design of these boxes, the antenna and base-station, is still predicated on that analog digital thing.
Such as, what is an analog signal, and what is a digital signal. Does this make sense? Analog? Digital?
What is analog? That is a wave, like a radio wave. Quick! What is your voice? Why ... that is an analog wave!
That is what happens when you speak into the phone. Your analog voice, consisting of waves, is some how sent through the air in wave form from your phone to the antenna.
But, there is a trick here. Analog is a wave, so it can go through air, water, my empty skull, etc ... Digital? Does digital signals go through the air, water, or my empty skull? If you said no! You are correct! Digital signals travel through a cable.
Now here is the question we must understand. Analog. Digital. Which one carries more data (ie bandwidth) and which one travels faster! If you said digital, congratulations, you're a geek!
What happens in those boxes, the analog signal must be converted into a digital signal, in order for it, the data which is your phone call, to travel through the network to the other end to the receiver, which it is re-converted back from digital to analog.
How advanced are those chips that handle analog signals? Aren't those analog technology 50 years old?
Seems to me, that as long as the chip is able to handle the amount of data generated by an analog signal, it should do the job. The faster the chip, the more efficient it will be in doing the job.
In my mind, there should be two chips. The analog conversion chip inside the antenna, which turns the wave signal into an electric signal, where that electric signal goes to the base station via a cable. The base station has that other chip. That other chip in the base station must be powerful enough to handle the data generated from 50 year old technology, and that base station chip will sent the digital signal along into the network.
Seems to me, that as long as that chip inside the base station is capable enough to handle the analog conversion chip inside the antenna (which converts the analog wave into binary signal), then it should work.
And you got to remember that the analog conversion chip inside the antenna is like 50 year old semiconductor.
Look at the garbage we read in the newspapers. Look at me, I know nothing, yet I know something about analog and digital, and from that we can probably figure out, that those base stations do not require the best top of the line chips available.
If it needs slower chips, maybe put it two of them? Maybe put in two, slower but more energy efficient chips? The engineers have the answer. Rant over.
My amateur ass opinion is that this is no problem, that it can surely be replaced. That the 7nm be replaced by the 14nm or 28nm or 45nm, and still work.
There will be a drop off in performance, and that is a difficult point.
This is not just about performance, the specs, the specs of the equipment and performance, it is also about the money.
Lower performance means your customers will want to pay a lower price. That is one problem.
The other problem I would think is that the lower performance if the 7nm is switched out for a 14nm chip in the base station, maybe it might affect something else in the system. If something was designed at those specs, and you tinker with it, maybe something negative happens elsewhere and you have to redesign it.
This is an engineering problem, and it comes down to being a business problem too.
Ren Zhengfei, does he want to resign the base station with the 14nm chip, or plow money into the chip fabrication?
Huawei? Ren Zhengfei probably going to do both. LOL!
My amateur ass opinion is that this is no problem, that it can surely be replaced. That the 7nm be replaced by the 14nm or 28nm or 45nm, and still work.
There will be a drop off in performance, and that is a difficult point.
This is not just about performance, the specs, the specs of the equipment and performance, it is also about the money.
Lower performance means your customers will want to pay a lower price. That is one problem.
The other problem I would think is that the lower performance if the 7nm is switched out for a 14nm chip in the base station, maybe it might affect something else in the system. If something was designed at those specs, and you tinker with it, maybe something negative happens elsewhere and you have to redesign it.
This is an engineering problem, and it comes down to being a business problem too.
Ren Zhengfei, does he want to resign the base station with the 14nm chip, or plow money into the chip fabrication?
Huawei? Ren Zhengfei probably going to do both. LOL!
You can use larger "nm" in chips to do 5G, but that will be at the cost of increased bulk, heat and power consumption, and the power bill gets passed on to the consumer. Telecom companies don't like that. Remember, that Nokia lost sales not just in China but all around the world because they want to use FPGA instead of ASIC, but however, FPGA consumes more power and generates more heat than ASIC, along with most of these currently available are in 14nm. Huawei's Tianggang is an ASIC by the way, that's why you have TSMC fab them, instead of ordering container loads of generic FPGA from Xilinx or Altera.
Used to be that base stations use FPGA and still do, but the migration to ASIC means less bulkier, cooler and less power. In fact, it felt almost reckless for Huawei to risk going mass producing ASIC over FPGA, because FPGA can be reprogrammed if there are any bug or issues. You have to be very confident of your chip design if you are going ASIC because there's no turning back if something goes wrong. So what Huawei did with its large orders of Tianggang needed a lot of balls.
I kind of feel that Huawei is overstocked with Tianggang that they may not get rid of the stock for years to come.
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Yup, I concur, and I do not know what I am talking about.
Those things are always on, and those boxes need the most power efficient chips. That is why Huawei at 7nm chips in their base station makes that company that kick ass.
The oversupply, is probably strategic. There will be customers outside of China, just do not know how many. If they insist on the best gear, they Huawei must sell that, also to stick it to the Americans.
Then they can workout a deal with the CCP and domestic telecom operations if a 14nm chip is used in their base station. Ren Zhengfei is CCP, he knows people to work it out, for sure!
Domestic telecom operators like China Mobile and China Telecom are state owned. These SOEs will follow what the state will say.
I take it that a lot of these parts shown here can be reverted to Chinese sources, including the FPGA.
Read that article last week.
Seems like only like that the semiconductors, are the only 5 parts not made in China. Should be made in Korea and Japan too some parts.
That FPGA, from Xlynlix(?), I remember reading an article linked from this forum that that was at either 14nm or 28nm, which means HiSilcon will be designing one of their own for domestic production.
The other parts those semiconductors do not seem overly advanced, which means it will be replaced after some more research.
That is all that is left, the last question, the main chip, how Huawei can produce that with a domestic fab, and the base station completely American free.
That is kind of remarkable. This world leading 5G base station, only 1 chip needs American input or TSMC more like it, otherwise there will be no American parts, they could all be replaced. Who thought the world can change this quickly.
When the Americans say they want to decouple the tech between the United States and China, if that is what they want to do, then that is what they want to do, good luck with it, and stop complaining about China. Be nice to not read in the media about all that whining anymore.
Perhabs. Even so, TBH, at least i know who they are and i tend to give them more credibility than people in an internet forum that i dont know anything about, and perhabs are as clueless as i am.
IMO, those examples dont work here because the chinese space/military industries doesnt really have to compete abroad. They exist to serve china´s needs. The semiconductor business is different. Even if china is able to replicate the complete chip production chain, they will need to be competitive, unless china bans/strongly discourages foreign chips. Of course, the chinese consumer could suffer from that, but thats another matter.
Im making this question because people here are making an assumption that huawei is going to be able to continue to produce its 5nm chips moving forward, without having a clue as to how.
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