Chinese Radar Developments - KLJ series and others

Quickie

Colonel
An X band ESA radar can have 10000 elements, a VHF one can have say 100.
This difference on its own means -20 DB .

Means that if the cross section deference is less than 20 db then it doesn't make sense to buy VHF radars, because they will not bring benefit compared to a 10000 elements PESA radar.

Considering that for the Turkish the S-400 more important than the F-35 I think it is safe to say the cross section difference is way more than 20 db between X and VHF.

It's not just the number of elements. Each of the VHF element transceivers can have a much higher power output than that of the X-band. The 100 elements of the VHF radar can end up having a much larger total signal power than the 10000 elements X-band radar.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I was replying to Anlsvrthng post in regard to the 20 dB difference in power of the 2 hypothetical radars.

Anyway, range and sweep are related to signal power.
Yep. To be clear I’m agreeing with you. Just pointing out who more elements by itslelf doesn’t automatically equal more powerful radar. Element count just by itself is more relevant to resolution.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
It's not just the number of elements. Each of the VHF element transceivers can have a much higher power output than that of the X-band. The 100 elements of the VHF radar can end up having a much larger total signal power than the 10000 elements X-band radar.
Agree, but the power difference/element is around 20 db (14 w vs 1400 w ) , means the higher per element power compensate the smaller element count on its own.

However as I remember the Russian X band radars has one magnitude higher power than the meter band ones, that means 10 db advantage as well.

I think it can be good if I go back to the radar equitation to calculate everything again : P
 

Quickie

Colonel
Agree, but the power difference/element is around 20 db (14 w vs 1400 w ) , means the higher per element power compensate the smaller element count on its own.

However as I remember the Russian X band radars has one magnitude higher power than the meter band ones, that means 10 db advantage as well.

I think it can be good if I go back to the radar equitation to calculate everything again : P

means the higher per element power compensate the smaller element count....

Hmm..that was basically what I meant.

However as I remember the Russian X band radars has one magnitude higher power than the meter band ones, that means 10 db advantage as well

The power requirement is more a function of the type of application. It doesn't mean they can't build a VHF radar with the same or higher output power (for stealth aircraft detection) bearing in mind the larger amount of space that is available to manage electronics heating problem in the case of the VHF radar.
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Hmm..that was basically what I meant.



The power requirement is more a function of the type of application. It doesn't mean they can't build a VHF radar with the same or higher output power (for stealth aircraft detection) bearing in mind the larger amount of space that is available to manage electronics heating problem in the case of the VHF radar.
This can gives clues for the efficiency of the VHF radars to detect stealth aircraft.

I mean the ratio between an X band and VHF band radar peak power output can show the required energy to detect the stealth aircraft.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I don't know if this is a case of seeing devil under your bed sound like it anyway
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A new Chinese radar facility could become a weapon hiding in plain sight
IN A coastal town in the South China Sea, just 4200km from Darwin, China is building a research facility. It might come with a catch.
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coming
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that have looked at low frequency radar for investigating underground features, finding natural resources and locating pipelines. Hambling believes China is interested in the potential to adapt such technology to detect submarines.

“As long as US submarines operate in this part of the world, China has no chance of dominating it,” he said.

“But a system which could blank out ELF (extremely low frequency) communications and selectively interfere with other satellite communications would severely affect any submarine operations in the South China Sea,” Hambling argued in
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.

The island where China is building the radar site also happens to be home to the country’s main naval base and houses a fleet of nuclear submarines.

However, Dr Carter said incoherent scatter radars “tend to be on the high frequency end” and questioned the use of such a device in submarine operations.

While the idea is a bit far fetched, Hambling is not alone in his assessment that the motivation of the project is as much political as it is scientific.

Stephen Chen, a Chinese journalist for the South China Morning Post, who spoke with people working on the project back in June, said he had no doubt that the Hainan radar was primarily a military project.

“The available information strongly suggested the facility’s role and function to help China strengthen its grip on the South China Sea,” he said.

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The site of the radar facility has led some to speculate about its purpose.Source:Supplied

In
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, Chen suggested the facility could be used to disrupt other countries’ communications networks by creating an atmospheric “black hole” over surrounding areas. While HAARP — now controlled by a university in Alaska — was in a remote region, the China facility will be in the middle of important air traffic lanes.

Such facilities are very expensive to operate so few governments have access to such radar capabilities for private research and development.

“In terms of ionospheric science, I think they’re among the most expensive instruments that we use. They are expensive to build and expensive to operate so we don’t have many of them,” Dr Carter said.

So it certainly makes sense China would be building it with an eye towards reaping all the benefits it can.

Officials at the Chinese Academy of Science leading the project reportedly urged Chinese scientists to use the facility to serve China’s “strategic needs” and pursue “frontier issues” in space.

From a scientific point of view, Dr Carter said researchers will welcome the data obtained via the facility when it is built.

“Having this incoherent scatter radio is going to be very beneficial for the whole field … We also don’t have any of them in the South East Asian region to study the equatorial ionosphere,” he said.

“Many of us inside the field are actually quite excited about the prospect of having an incoherent scatter radar facility placed in south East Asia.”
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
New OTH radar is identified in Inner Mongolia
With the new find from our colleague
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, here are the areas potentially covered by the two Chinese OTH-B radars. One of the main sorties for the Chinese army to the Western Pacific, around Miyako Strait, would be doubly monitored.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Britain to sell China ‘unlimited’ amount of military radar equipment, technology
  • Special export licence approved in April, just weeks after British Prime Minister Theresa May visited Beijing
  • Move comes amid closer exchanges between top radar scientists from China, Britain

PUBLISHED : Thursday, 01 November, 2018, 5:29pm
UPDATED : Thursday, 01 November, 2018, 5:56pm
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Although the supplier has not been named, the “open individual export licence” (OIEL) has been in place since April – two months after British Prime Minister Theresa May visited Beijing – according to information from Britain’s Department for International Trade.

Unlike previous deals involving British arms sales to China, which were capped by amount and value, under the new agreement the supplier can “export an unlimited quantity of goods”, including equipment, components, software and technology for military radar systems, the department said.

Its strategic export control database described the equipment covered by the licence as “target acquisition, weapon control and countermeasure systems” for “aircraft, helicopters and drones”.

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“It’s potentially a big licence, and it does say the end user is the air force,” said Andrew Smith, a spokesman for the London-based NGO Campaign Against Arms Trade.

While open individual export licences usually remain valid for between five and 10 years, “the values are never published, so the figure could be very high”, Smith said.

But Britain is not the only European country that sells military equipment to China.

“Almost all the other big arms exporters do exactly the same,” Smith said.

The trade department declined to comment on the deal.

While Britain remains a close ally of the United States, the deal suggests London is prepared to deal with China despite the ongoing trade and strategic tussles between Beijing and Washington.

Li Bin, a senior fellow working jointly in the Nuclear Policy Programme and Asia Programme at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace at Tsinghua University in Beijing, said Britain was facing many challenges at home and abroad due to its pending departure from the European Union.

While many companies, including financial firms in London, are considering reallocating to mainland Europe, China last year doubled its direct investment in Britain to more than US$20 billion.

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Against that backdrop, Britain seemed keen to do more business with China, Li said.

And while Washington might not like the radar deal, it might not be able to stop it, he said.

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The export licence is not the only connection Britain has with China on radar systems.

Last month, Professor Hugh Griffiths, one of Britain’s top radar scientists and chairman of the Defence Science Expert Committee at the Ministry of Defence, was officially recognised by Beijing for his contribution to the advancement of Chinese radar technology.

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Wu Jianqi, chief designer of China’s first anti-stealth aircraft radar system, presented Griffiths with an “Outstanding Award for Chinese Radar International Development” in front of more than 700 Chinese scientists at a conference in Nanjing, capital of east China’s Jiangsu province, according to information on official websites.

Griffiths, who has been a regular visitor to China since the 1980s, did not respond to requests for comment.

Meanwhile, David Stupples, a British professor of electronic and radio systems at City, University of London, whose research focuses on electronic intelligence and warfare, said he had been invited to lecture at the technical institute associated with intelligence services in China.

“China has made tremendous progress in radar design over the past 10 years and must be considered in the [world’s] top 10,” he said.

In space-based radar systems, for instance, China has shown “expertise and ingenuity”, but for maritime and airborne applications, “the UK is marginally ahead”, Stupples said.

Britain was also ahead on designing complete intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance systems, although the Chinese military’s “individual components are first rate”, he said.

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Cao Yunhe, an award-winning military radar scientist at Xidian University in Xian, capital of northwest China’s Shaanxi province, said the export licence was good news for China’s military strength and radar research.

“If they are willing to sell we are willing to buy,” he said. “We want to know how their systems operate. It will help us improve our own design,” he said.

However, it was unlikely the technology and equipment being sold by Britain would be its most advanced.

“There will always be some restrictions. If not on quantity, then on quality,” he said.

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Wang Tong, who is also from Xidian University and works on radar systems for China’s military aircraft and satellites, said the exchanges between Chinese and British experts would not go “too deep”.

Britain shares a lot of intelligence with the US, so China could not possibly allow British experts to get directly involved in its military radar programmes, he said,

“Sharing information about models and specifications is strictly prohibited. I believe both sides are fully aware of the consequences,” Wang said.

“Most of the time people are just talking about physics, mathematical models and new theories.”
 
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