Chinese purchase of Su-35

manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
b787 said:
The Su-35 is a great enhancement to the J-11 fleet, here our colleges minimize the fact Su-35 supercruises, but basically it means less fuel spent so it means longer range add Su-35 carries more fuel internally, (which means new internal structures and enhanced avionics) means Su-35 enhances power projection over any J-11.
Even J-20 with inferior engines can not compete, regardless you say it is stealthy, J-20 has not better engines, it is almost as large as a Su-35 and at least as heavy, so it has no better range.

So i will put it simple, 117S gives to China two advantages longer range and higher speed on Flanker platforms.

Russia is not about charity, China pays or no deal, Russia needs money, and Su-35 is a very advanced weapon, is 5th generation subsystems on a 4th generation fuselage, J-20 is a 5th generation fuselage but lacks the most important 5th generation thing, without it, no supercruise, no STOL, no super maneuverability, and no post stall regardless of what you say without TVC nozzles there is no credible post stall handling, so in few words the Su-35 is a gift Russia is not willing to sell without the most money they can get, Russia knows China eventually will get the technology embedded in 117S, but for them they will make sure they take more time and they get the most money, so China and Russia are negotiating and for that reason it has taken long
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1. By what logic does carrying more internal fuel equate to "enhanced avionics?"
2. You've forgotten to consider aircraft design completely. You obviously cannot deduce relative range simply by engines and weight of the aircraft, especially if you don't know the relative weights of the aircraft. It's no safe bet at all, that J-20 is somehow smaller than Su-35, made of more composites, and still "at least as heavy" as Su-35.
3. I believe Su-35 actually is slower than AL-31 variant flankers (including sino-flankers); Mach 2.25 vs. Mach 2.35.
4. Most people, and I mean I've never seen anyone who thinks otherwise, would not say that supercruise was somehow the most important aspect of a 5th gen fighter LOL. Most people would say... maybe... STEALTH?? But hey, if it's most important to you specifically, you can certainly say that.
 
b787

b787

Captain
tell me how you pack in the same fuselage more fuel see:
Su-35
Aircraft specification
Aircraft length
wing span (m) 14.70
length (m) 21.9
height (m) 5.9
Weight characteristics
maximum fuel reserve in integral tanks (kg) 11,3
maximum take-off weight (kg) 34,5
normal take-off weight (kg) 25,3
maximum combat payload weight (kg) 8,000 on 12 hardpoints

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now let us see

Aircraft performance
Takeoff weight:
- normal (including rockets 2xR-27R1 + 2xR-73E, 5270 kg fuel), kg
- maximum, kg
23,430*
30,450
Maximum landing weight, kg 21,000
Max landing weight, kg 23,000
Maximum internal fuel, kg 9,400
Maximum ordnance, kg 4,430
Service ceiling (without external ordnance and stores), km 18.5
Aircraft dimensions:
- length, 21.9 m
- wingspan, 14.7 m
- height, 5.9 m



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same size, same fuselage different fuel, it means new structure and smaller avionics
 
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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
SamuraiBlue said:
Air Force Brat
Carbon fiber composite used for bicycle and the ones used for airplanes are two different animals. Japan I believe supplies around 80% of high quality CFC(based on different diameter of thread) utilized for airplanes in which the material is banned from being exported without a government issued license and none had been issued to export to PRC to my knowledge.
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I don't disagree with most things you say however this isn't one of them.
I'm quite positive China these days has the ability to produce aircraft grade composites. As a matter a fact I can almost guarantee it.
Aircraft grade thermoplastics, CFCs or other carbon/Kevlar polymers etc while difficult to perfect are not exactly KFC's super secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices.
 
SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
kwaigonegin said:
I don't disagree with most things you say however this isn't one of them.
I'm quite positive China these days has the ability to produce aircraft grade composites. As a matter a fact I can almost guarantee it.
Aircraft grade thermoplastics, CFCs or other carbon/Kevlar polymers etc while difficult to perfect are not exactly KFC's super secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices.
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Just a few years ago I recall posting an article about a sting operation where a PRC business person was caught trying to export aircraft grade CFC by the FBI showing how they lack the technology.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
b787 said:
tell me how you pack in the same fuselage more fuel see:

now let us see



same size, same fuselage different fuel, it means new structure and smaller avionics
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Yeah, nobody asked you how to pack more fuel into the same fuselage and "smaller" avionics don't translate to "enhanced" avionics, not over J-11. Over Su-27, sure, since Su-35 avionics were upgraded from Su-27 avionics but J-11 (especially late versions) uses completely different avionics altogether. You can assume nothing about the state of advancement from size. That said, you can tell much from the fact that PLAAF pilots rejected the Su-35 after test-flying saying it was inferior to J-16.
 
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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
SamuraiBlue said:
Just a few years ago I recall posting an article about a sting operation where a PRC business person was caught trying to export aircraft grade CFC by the FBI showing how they lack the technology.
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That may be so but it's a long stretch from assuming China doesn't possess the ability to make CFCs.
Corporate espionage happens all the time for different reasons. Yes some may be directly related to 'copying' verbatim but that's actually far and few between.
We also do not know what exactly he was exporting. While it may be CFCs, it doesn't mean he was exporting it because China has zero ability to make one therefore needs to copy existing technologies. It could just be another type of composite that has different formulas, mixture which is more likely the case here.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
SamuraiBlue said:
Just a few years ago I recall posting an article about a sting operation where a PRC business person was caught trying to export aircraft grade CFC by the FBI showing how they lack the technology.
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1. A few years ago is an eon ago in Chinese technology.
2. Wanting to see what someone else is using doesn't mean you don't have the technology. You think the US might wanna rip open a J-10A to see what's inside or do you think they'll pass cus F-35 likely has better stuff?
3. Does a "business person" know exactly what China's military needs or could he simply feel that China would be interested in paying him well to obtain some competitor military grade carbon fiber?
 
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vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
SamuraiBlue said:
vincent

T800 is a Toray registered brand name for one and more importantly if the facility was only constructed this year then there is no way it had been utilized before.
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The article mentioned the company has a production line capable of producing the composite in the hundreds of tons
 
SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
kwaigonegin said:
That may be so but it's a long stretch from assuming China doesn't possess the ability to make CFCs.
Corporate espionage happens all the time for different reasons. Yes some may be directly related to 'copying' verbatim but that's actually far and few between.
We also do not know what exactly he was exporting. While it may be CFCs, it doesn't mean he was exporting it because China has zero ability to make one therefore needs to copy existing technologies. It could just be another type of composite that has different formulas, mixture which is more likely the case here.
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If PRC had the tech they would have incorporated into the C919 and other civilian passenger liners like their western counterparts to obtain better fuel economy.
Since I haven't heard of any news concerning any plans of usage of CFC on any of their civilian crafts makes you wonder.
 
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