Chinese Marine Propulsion

J

jobjed

Captain
taxiya said:
Regarding QC280, as I read from

Thanks for the informative posts. Regarding QC280 I have to disagree.
Gongke's word was "606的叫QC400太行基础上发展的，用间冷，中船703所的叫GT25000IC，QC280这个号以后有没有还两说呢。" Which means the type QC280 may or may not be granted. By saying that he does admit the existence of the engine program. He only doubt if the engine will get endorsement for a type name.
He also said (in your first link) ""QC280是中航发编号，GT25000IC是中船编号，两个激烈竞争中。" QC280 is AVIC's type number which is in competition at the time of speaking August 2018. And the result should be out at the end of 2018.

Then there is another post in 2017
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
which according to AVIC publication that QC280/QD280 has reached 20 per year production capacity. I can not find the original report from AVIC site, but I found this link from ICBC in their stock report
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
which says

The company's program of establishing production capacity for QC280/QD280 has been achieved. Together with the 2017 cjdby post just above it is clear that the capacity is 20 per year.

I don't know if there is any dispute between some Chinese companies around QC280, nor do I know if I should trust any claims of such dispute. But it is clear that the program and the engine not only finished development but reached mass production by 2017.

Since QC280's capacity program started at 2009 lasted to 2017 and in active competition right now, any controversy regarding IP can be and should be ignored because any accusation in the last minute would be seen as a pure sabotage of competition and waste of state fund. The only thing that can exclude QC280 in Navy's program would be underperformance than its peer.
Click to expand...

In August 2018, gongke said this:

25000本来就是海军出钱703负责实际操作，703拉上哈汽和430干的，430有全套图纸，就在中航支持下干整机，想抢军用市场，但703和许多承制厂签了排他性协议，，据说海军也没明着拒绝，只是说既然用了许多中航的新部件就按军规试验一项项來，据说只要中航自己花个四年左右，花几个亿就可以和703Pk，后来中航就放弃了。
Click to expand...

Translation: 25000 was always a Navy-funded program delegated to 703 for overseeing. 703 collaborated with Harbin Gas Turbine and 430 on the project. 430 got all the technical drawings and, with the support of AVIC, wanted to take over the military market but 703 signed exclusivity agreements with a lot of factories that manufacture the components of the GT25000. From what I hear, the Navy didn't outright reject AVIC, they just said they'll have to verify AVIC components according to naval standards' step by step. Supposedly, AVIC only had to spend four years of effort and a few hundred million yuan to effectively compete with CSIC. However, AVIC eventually gave up on the project.

In February 2017, AVIC released the report you quoted, announcing an end to the QC280 production-expansion project and beginning of delivery of fixed assets. They also note the project resulted in enlargement to various facilities and improvements to their gas turbine manufacturing process. There was no mention of concrete production capacity figures, nor any mention of actual deliveries of the product. Coupled with gongke's synopsis of the debacle more than a year later, it's seems clear to me that AVIC had indeed given up on their version of the UGT 25000, aka QC280.

That's not to say the QC280 designation is definitely gone, if AVIC develops a gas turbine in the 28MW range in the future, they could very possibly reuse the QC280 designation. I believe that's what gongke meant when he said the fate of the QC280 name is unclear; that AVIC may or may not develop a 28MW-class gas turbine in the future, as opposed to whether or not AVIC's attempt at the UGT 25000 still exists, because it doesn't and AVIC has given up.

Also, my interpretation of "QC280是中航发编号，GT25000IC是中船编号，两个激烈竞争中。" is: QC280 is AVIC's, GT25000IC is CSIC's, the two [corporations] are in fierce competition. I believe gongke is referring to the two corporations in this July comment, not the two projects, because a month later in August, he posted the previous comment about AVIC's giving up on that exact project. In fact, in the very comment you quoted, he said AVIC's horse in the competition is the QC400 not the QC280.

To conclude, my interpretation of the situation is AVIC tried and failed to usurp 703's GT25000 but learnt a fair bit and is using what they learnt to develop the QD185 and QC400. No state money was involved with AVIC's efforts, it was a purely private venture involving a few hundred million yuan, which is around 100 million USD, not exactly a lot in the grand scheme of things especially in the field of gas turbines and aeroengines. Gongke is also an AVIC employee, if anyone knows what AVIC is or isn't doing, it's him.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This is interesting. If there is one thing that I have thought a lot was that the Chinese had a definite lack of in-house competition in modern gas turbine engine technology. It is interesting to know of CSIC's role in the marine gas turbine sector. This also likely explains why the Chinese navy has had more success in this area than the aero engines sector.
This also bodes well for what I think is likely to happen next decade, i.e. I expect a large natural gas power generation ramp-up to begin in China once Russian piped gas becomes available. Northern China does not have a lot of generation choices other than coal and the Chinese government is trying to improve air quality in major cities. So I expect a move to gas in the Beijing area for both house heating and electric grid load-following. This should help stabilize the economics and viability of the Chinese gas turbine sector since it will be less vulnerable to state funding shortfalls if it has both a civilian and military sector similar to how GE does in the USA. Typically marine gas turbines and electric power generation gas turbines share much of the same basic technology. While the commonalities with airplane gas technologies are sometimes less evident because engine weight is less of a concern and you have different turbine cooling environments. In that case they typically rely on the civilian airliner segment to compensate. Like Pratt & Whitney does.

The comments about the investment into modern intercoolers also sound interesting since it should allow much better engine efficiency and it is considered leading edge technology that is not even well controlled by the leading players in the West. Just see the problems with the Type 45 and the Zumwalt.

I also have not heard who exactly is it that does the nuclear propulsion systems in China. I never quite got who the suppliers for the submarine engines are. Not that this is readily available information in other similar programs elsewhere either. Also with regards to those large Chinese Coast Guard cutters which supposedly use IEP does anyone have more information on those? I can't seem to find much data about them.
 
A

AeroEngineer

Junior Member
As long as China can make and service the engine %100, the names are not important !!!

It is important however for China to have the ability to design and develop future gas turbine engines. At least AVIC got the QC-70 taking care of and is now working on the QC-185. That is good news.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Via JSCH advance in full electric propulsion. apparently China take different route than western country She use direct current instead of alternating current avoiding difficulty with alternating current as we see in ford class carrier EMAL!

Merit citations indicate PLA Navy’s weapon development
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/8/1 17:58:13

3c7d2248-0e68-4dff-8b79-92996a99672f.jpeg

The guided-missile destroyer Kunming (Hull 172) attached to a destroyer flotilla with the navy under the PLA Southern Theater Command fires its close-in weapons system at mock aerial targets during a maritime actual combat training exercise in late April, 2018. File photo: eng.chinamil.com.cn

Another Chinese naval scientist working on full electric propulsion (FEP) received a first-class merit citation on Wednesday, a year after a colleague on his team was likewise honored. Experts said the honors reflect the rapid development in China's FEP warships.

An FEP ship is much more efficient in terms of power usage compared to traditional vessels, and the technology could enable warships to be equipped with futuristic weapons such as lasers and electromagnetic railguns, they said.

Xi Jinping, chairman of the Central Military Commission, signed the orders awarding a first-class merit citation to Wang Dong, a professor with the Naval University of Engineering in Central China's Hubei Province, the Xinhua News Agency reported on Wednesday.

While it is not yet known Wang's exact achievement in his field, military analysts said the rare merit citation is possibly due to his contribution to the development of electric propulsion systems for Chinese warships.

Wang, 41, is a member of the team led by Ma Weiming, a professor at the university and an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, according to navy.81.cn, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy's website.

With Wang as a core member, Ma's team developed the concept of medium-voltage direct current FEP technology in a world first in 2003, while other countries such as the US and UK are using alternating current, said a release posted on the website of the Hubei government.

The alternative current FEP system is overly complicated and highly interconnected, so a small problem could cause a major failure, Wu Jian, editor of Defense Weekly under Shanghai-based Xinmin Evening News, told the Global Times on Thursday, noting that the direct current method is more stable, although more challenging in the design phase.

An FEP system enables a vessel to allocate power anywhere it needs, while on traditional vessels, some power is designated for propulsion even though ships seldom sail at full speed. This leaves a considerable amount of power unused, analysts said.

Wu pointed out that with FEP, this wasted power could be used for high-energy weapons, the operation of which was previously not possible due to limited power supply.

Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert, told the Global Times that these power-consuming weapons might include lasers and electromagnetic railguns.

In 2018, Xiao Fei, another key member of Ma's team, was awarded a first-class merit citation for the direct current FEP system, PLA Daily reported then.

"One characteristic of Ma's team is that they not only focus on scientific development, but also on putting their innovations into practice," Wu said, noting that this is the reason why many awards went to them.
 
O

Orthan

Senior Member
jobjed said:
The gas turbines currently used by the PLAN in the 052s and 055s are indigenised UGT 25000s, called GT25000
Click to expand...

Acording to this article from defence express from march of this year, QC-280 is only 95% produced in china. The rest, i assume, comes from Ukraine. So china doesnt have complete production capability of QC-280 and still depends on Ukraine for parts.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


jobjed said:
  1. The near future of Chinese gas turbine development will be 40MW-class turbines developed from the current designs using intercooled recuperation technology
    1. The GT25000 has already achieved 33MW in its current form with assistance from Ukrainian engineers working for China
    2. With IC, the GT25000IC is aiming for a 25% increase in power to 40MW
    3. The general figures for IC is a 20% increase in power from a 100K decrease in compressor intake temp; for comparison, the UK's WR-21 boosted its power by 25% using IC
    4. AVIC's horse in this race is the QC400, an IC'd QD185
    5. The QC400, compared to the GT25000IC has a much more difficult task of boosting power by 116%(!!) from 18.5MW to 40MW -- lol good luck AVIC
    6. The IC section of the QC400 is also a lot bulkier than the GT25000IC's, plus the actual turbine set itself is bigger than the GT25000 and the PLAN prefers compact systems
    7. The 40MW competition was said to conclude at the end of 2018 with the winner granted state funding for further development and refinement, gongke hasn't updated on the current status
Click to expand...

If china cant fully produce QC-280, will it also not be able to fully produce GT25000IC ?

Also, acording to this rostec article from 2017, china and russia would cooperate to develop an 40 MW gas turbine engine. Has anyone heard from this?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Orthan said:
Im not saying that it isnt, but the article doesnt mention that this is a marine engine.
Click to expand...

Any Gas turbine can be converted to marine application all you have to do is using corrosion free compressor section See LM2500 was originally for civilian application but now powering most of navy destroyer
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Hendrik_2000 said:
Any Gas turbine can be converted to marine application all you have to do is using corrosion free compressor section See LM2500 was originally for civilian application but now powering most of navy destroyer
Click to expand...
Not every gas turbine is good for use as a marine engine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top