Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

ougoah said:

I don't think it's true Russia is ahead in hypersonics or nuclear power at all.

There's literally zero evidence for hypersonics whereas China has fielded at least their second generation of hypersonic gliders and at least first gen of cruise missile, Russia is at gen 1 for glider and gen 1 for cruise and I think this is giving them a bit more credit.

Nuclear power im less familiar with but China has got 3 different experimental reactor types running concurrently.

On renewables, computing, chips, cars, energy storage, digital infrastructure, cloud computing, shipbuilding, space. Yeah Russia is either far behind or getting lapped with over 1 generation gap.

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Russia is traditionally very good with nuclear technology especially naval and miniature ones. Poisedon torpedo has a gas cooled mini reactor which if true would be very advanced and be first of it's kind, also there's that nuclear powered cruise missile. China also sourced RTGs from Russia for various space missions like Yutu rovers.

Just think about it. The nuclear power source in the Burevestnik cruise missile is something no one else has in service.
Russia also has the most advanced fast reactor program currently. BN-1200M and BREST-OD-300 reactors currently under construction have no equivalents.

Hypersonic Cruise Missile

Fiction: Zircon ... The Hindu Zircon

Reality: "early ramjet - scramjet "dual purpose" engine powered basic tube missiles" (ougoah)

W20 said:

Once again, someone in the West (between Moscow and San Francisco) imagines something and fantasizes and brags with pretty artistic drawings, and meanwhile ... Chinese scientists and engineers are two generations ahead ... in the real world.

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This point is so important, understated, underappreciated and far too often missed.

This point is everything. They really don't get it and never will. They dream up and sketch and plan and fantasize and sometimes build prelim barely models, sometimes concept studies that work to show 1 out of 100 engineering goals. China works at it in silence and secrecy until it's at least nearly complete. This goes for everything from next generation nuclear power stations to EVs to missiles.

Tomboy said:

Russia is traditionally very good with nuclear technology especially naval and miniature ones. Poisedon torpedo has a gas cooled mini reactor which if true would be very advanced and be first of it's kind, also there's that nuclear powered cruise missile. China also sourced RTGs from Russia for various space missions like Yutu rovers.

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Yes maybe with specialty nuclear reactors like the ones you've mentioned but certainly not with commercial power stations anymore. Russia's active molten salt reactors where? Russia's thorium reactors where? Russia's pebble bed reactors where? On all three China's got more experimental and commercially active ones now today operating. Russia has very limited experimental ones in the past or planning to build.

For conventional reactors China has caught up. Studied its own, Soviet ones, American ones, French ones for decades and the latest Hualong gen 3s are no less than the latest Russian VVERs. Russia isn't even ahead of China in commercial nuclear energy. Specialty cases the Americans are a match if not better than the Russian ones. They also have miniature reactors and a long history of building proven ones.

W20 said:

View attachment 158776

Hypersonic Cruise Missile

Fiction: Zircon ... The Hindu Zircon

Reality: "early ramjet - scramjet "dual purpose" engine powered basic tube missiles" (ougoah)

View attachment 158777

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Exactly. This Zircon (actual) launch shown looks NOTHING like the artist impression in "The Hindu". Those artist impressions always use a wedge scramjet X-43A looking object with intake on the underside of the missile.

This actual Zircon launch photo looks remarkably similar to this Ukrainian sketch:



Under that protection cone is an intake design similar to the Linyun-1 and Boeing Hyfly.

This part collected by Ukraine



Looks a bit similar to this section



Some of the parts the Ukrainians collected had the 3M22 and manufacturing plates. Sure they could have faked it but come on. How does the real Zircon look anything like that Hindu artist impression used. It's just a tube with that Hyfly ramjet-scramjet intake.

It's still a legit top tier weapon no doubt but some people talk it up like it's a X-43A/ HAWC only actually perfected and usable. Nah that's what the YJ-19 is ... only better

gelgoog said:

Just think about it. The nuclear power source in the Burevestnik cruise missile is something no one else has in service.
Russia also has the most advanced fast reactor program currently. BN-1200M and BREST-OD-300 reactors currently under construction have no equivalents.

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Sorry but the Burevestnik is a terrible weapon. It's so prone to issues and just a hazard for everyone. If you want a loitering nuke, perfect a FOBS. A flying nuclear reactor was also explored by Soviets and Americans since the 1960s. Nuclear powered aircraft (bombers in the Cold War cases) and nuclear powered cruise missiles. The American one was called Project Pluto. They abandoned it because they realised how insane the idea was. Russia persisted for some reason perhaps they convinced themselves they need it but honestly who is going to threaten Russia with anything existential when Russia has enough nukes to wipe the rest of the world twice over with nuclear triad.

Just because Russia fielded the Burevestnik doesn't mean they're ahead of the Americans in miniature reactors. I'm sure the Americans could do a similar thing and possibly even make it work more reliably. China on the other hand is certainly weaker than the other two in miniature reactors for now.

You see, you assume it is just a copy of Project Pluto. When the truth is we know nothing about the nuclear propulsion system. It could not leave any fissionables on the exhaust trail for all we know.
In fact I suspect as much. The original test site for Burevestnik was near Severodvinsk and was only moved to Novaya Zemlya later.
Which suggests it is designed to have a clean exhaust.

gelgoog said:

You see, you assume it is just a copy of Project Pluto. When the truth is we know nothing about the nuclear propulsion system. It could not leave any fissionables on the exhaust trail for all we know.
In fact I suspect as much. The original test site for Burevestnik was near Severodvinsk and was only moved to Novaya Zemlya later.
Which suggests it is designed to have a clean exhaust.

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I didn't say it was a copy of Pluto. I mentioned Pluto to make it known that the US has a half century old nuclear powered cruise missile program and abandoned it like a sensible nation (in this case lol). The US today can easily do a Burestnik equivalent and possibly do it much better. You however are making some crazy assumptions about how great the Burevestnik is. Um we do know it leaves fission trails. At least It's had some issues that was reported in the media. However accurate or fair those reports are is unknown. These are western claims, the flip side is the Russians claiming this thing is a supa dupa unmatched weapon.

Burevestnik is not proof of Russian superiority in miniature nuclear reactors. It's only proof that it was more desperate to field a ridiculously pointless and hazardous weapon.