Chinese Engine Development

latenlazy

Brigadier
What are the benefits of a counter-rotating engine? Is it really equivalent in complexity to VCE because I imagine it would be something like Gen 5.5 while VCE is Gen 6.
Engine efficiency and capability in both power and weight parameters are driven first and foremost by the compressor cycle design. This was the key parameter driving improvement from third gen to fourth gen and fourth gen to fifth gen engine designs. A more powerful compressor for fewer stages means an engine that’s both lighter and also capable of a much greater energy budget to allocate to either thrust or fuel efficiency.

Technically since 4th gen all engines have been counter-rotating. It’s just a question of which stages of the engine are rotating in opposite directions. In 4th gens it was just the fan section relative to the LPC and HPC. In 5th Gen it was the fan and LPC relative to the HPC. The candidate for China’s 6th gen we are discussing makes individual alternating HPC stages themselves counter-rotating.

The reason counter-rotating engine cycles have been the key driver of performance comes down to how gas turbines work. Gas turbines compress air from the front of the engine, drives the compressed air into a burner, ignites it with fuel to release combustion energy, and expels it through the back of the engine. A turbine positioned behind the burner meanwhile collects some of the energy released to rotate the compressors to keep the engine going. To get more thrust you need to compress more air. Compressing air harder lets you expel air with more force and also makes the air-fuel burn more efficient leading to more extraction of energy, and thus work and force from the air-fuel mix. You can compress more air by spinning the compressors faster and by adding more compression stages. Adding more compression stages makes your engine longer and heavier though so this isn’t a scalable solution. Spinning the compressor faster eventually hits a mechanical limit for the rotors and axles driving the engine cycle. Counter-rotating designs get around the rotation speed limits by introducing a second axle that spins in the opposite direction. Two rotors spinning in opposite directions doubles the angular velocity of the compressors working on the air stream without doubling the single axle rotation speed or adding more stages. Put more alternating stages in counter-rotation to one another and you get more compression at each stage, which means you can extract more power while also reducing the number of stages.

The 4 stage counter-rotating HPC turbine cycle China has been working on for their 6th generation fighter moves further in this direction than what 5th Gen designs do, where the primary counter-rotating components are the LPC section and the HPC section. China’s 4 stage counter-rotating HPC has alternating HPC stages. For reference 5th gen engines like the F119, EJ200, and the WS-15 have 5-6 stage HPCs (we don’t actually know how many stages the WS-15 HPC has but all prior information on the engine suggests it’s 6). 4th gen engines meanwhile like the F100, F110, Al-31, and WS-10 have 9-10 stage high pressure compressors.

VCEs have their own set of mechanical complexities. VCE design primarily involves introducing some means of varying the effective bypass ratio of the front section of the engine, either with multiple front fans that run for different parts of the flight regime, by varying the geometry of the bypass stream that the fan drives around the core (turbofans split the stream of air it sucks in into a bypass stream that is purely driven by the fans without further compression pushed to the exit of the engine and a main stream that goes into the compressors to drive the turbine cycle), by adding additional stream paths into the engine’s architecture, or some mix of all three.

These are both mechanically complex approaches to driving higher engine performance, but in my estimation bringing counter-rotating cycles to alternating HPC stages is actually in some ways more complex than VCE design. But FWIW these are not also mutually exclusive design approaches either. You can combine the two, though it’s an open question whether you’d want to tackle the challenges of doing both together for a next generation engine.
 
Last edited:

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Similar to F119 in terms of Thrust? or??

Material wise, i would be surprised if WS-15 isnt ahead of F119, i mean, even WS-10C was already using DD6, whereas WS15 and co should be using DD9 by now?

I remember some dude mentioned ws-15 will not be as fuel hungry as F119, so we should expect better FC compared to F119?
WS-10C currently uses DD9 3rd generation single crystal alloy.

WS-15 definitely will use 4th generation.

4th generation single cycle alloy have been showcase in 2021 air show.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
WS-10C currently uses DD9 3rd generation single crystal alloy.

WS-15 definitely will use 4th generation.

4th generation single cycle alloy have been showcase in 2021 air show.
I wouldn't be so sure. Gen 3 to gen 4 is a big leap because it switches from Rhenium added superalloys to Ruthenium added superalloys (Rhenium still stays though) and the benefits aren't huge either. The F-135 achieves 1980 celsius turbine inlet temperature despite using a 3rd gen alloy. Especially if we consider the age of the WS-15 project, a third gen alloy is much more likely. This doesn't mean there are no improvements though. Not all alloys of the same generation are the same.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
I wouldn't be so sure. Gen 3 to gen 4 is a big leap because it switches from Rhenium added superalloys to Ruthenium added superalloys and the benefits aren't huge either. The F-135 achieves 1980 celsius turbine inlet temperature despite using a 3rd gen alloy. Especially if we consider the age of the WS-15 project, a third gen alloy is much more likely. This doesn't mean there are no improvements though. Not all alloys of the same generation are the same.
thanks for the clarification. WS-15 single crystal alloy has no official news. so all are just pure estimates.

F-135 really has 3rd generation single crystal alloy ? interesting

btw, China have showcase the 4th generation single crystal alloy in the air show. maybe for next generation engine or advance variant of WS-15 engine. who knows.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Interesting. Looking at superalloy compositions, I found a research paper from 2008 regarding 5th gen superalloys.

You can also find compositions of many superalloys in the paper

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

alloys.png
The same guys were also in a 6th gen alloy paper 4 years later. The paper claims that the improvement from the 3rd to 4th gen is just 30 degrees and the 4th and 5th generation allows are less resistant to oxidation.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Edit: National Tsinghua University is in Taiwan, sorry. The Taiwanese guy was living in mainland China when the article about 5th gen alloys was published though.
 
Last edited:

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Interesting. Looking at superalloy compositions, I found a research paper from 2008 regarding 5th gen superalloys. One of the authors is Chinese.

You can also find compositions of many superalloys in the paper

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 110066
The same Chinese guy was also in a 6th gen alloy paper 4 years later. The paper claims that the improvement from 3rd to 4th gen is just 30 degrees and 4th and 5th generation allows are less resistant to oxidation.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

National Tsinghua University is in Taiwan.
 

Red tsunami

Junior Member
Registered Member
It would be unrealistic, and frankly unreasonable, to expect the WS-15 to *exceed* the F135 or F119. Frankly it's already pretty monumental for the WS-15 to be in the same ballpark. At this point even if there is still a gap between the WS-15 and F135 it's not going to be a very big one. The WS-15 we are getting today is likely *way* more advanced than whatever they were planning to introduce back in the late 2000s.

The impression I've gotten following this topic for a decade now is that after the debacle that was the WS-10's initial introduction they went back to the drawing board for the WS-15's development and waited for critical enabling component technologies to mature before being satisfied with the design. The just get something out the door mentality was a necessity when China was backwards and poor and needed to have something just to maintain a bare minimum capability, but they've now figured out it is an absolutely terrible way to chase the technology frontier. Your designs have to come from much more advanced fundamental components and technologies, and the brunt of your energy and resources need to focus on those foundations if you want to chase cutting edge performance.

If you focus your resources on advancing your component technologies and make your design and product development process downstream of that your product development moves very quickly. If one component or another fails you will have a portfolio of other components to try to maintain a fast rate of iteration on your design. Furthermore, components development itself can iterate much faster on their own than if they're contingent on a larger integrated design stack. If you start with a design and then make component technologies downstream of that you will be forced to redo the whole development stack every time a component fails, since you will have to redevelop new components and wait on those to hit those design goals. The latter approach has only one superficial advantage to the former, which is that it is on paper cheaper. But even that advantage bleeds very quickly once you start hitting project delays. The lesson that product design has to come downstream from components and not vice versa has been critical for China's ability to close the technology gap. Rapid advanced product development cannot work without good optionality in your component technologies. This is why we are now seeing new engine developments happening so rapidly. The dam has finally broken loose.

Why is it unrealistic and unreasonable to expect WS-15 to exceed F119?
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Why is it unrealistic and unreasonable to expect WS-15 to exceed F119?
he has just gave the example. according his analysis, with WS-15 China has indeed close the gap with US.

there is not a huge technological milestone in between F-119/F-135 and WS-15. but need to see the specifications of WS-15.

China is very close to US in engine industry.jpg
 

machete

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Yankee and friends have a similar somber attitude about the WS-15 progress. It has reached the same stage as F-119 before integration with F-22 but that happened so long ago. On the bright side at least China is finally in the same generation as the U.S. 20 years ago when the Americans were making F-119 China was making advanced turbojets and sometimes failing...

Another interesting leak is that WS-18 is pretty much mature. It is a domestic copy of D-30 and they went about in a Ship of Theseus approach where they incrementally swapped out Russian components for domestic components until the whole thing was domestic. Then China proceeded with mass producing WS-18 with domestic components.
Just finished listening and heard interesting news about materials from 23:00. It was said that Japanese basic materials were of good quality and that Toray Japan made the materials that were supplied to Ishikawajima Harima Heavy Industries to produce the f110 engine. As far as I remember Japanese engine making is superior to that of China. If ranked US first, Japan second, Russia third and China fourth?
My knowledge of the military is very fragmented. It's a noob
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
What's the performance difference between 2d thrust vectoring like the f22 raptor vs 2d thrust vectoring like on a su35
 
Top