Chinese Engine Development

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
From what I gathered, counter-rotating turbine obviates the guide vanes as the rotation of the slipstream is eliminated. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss further, but you may want to click on the links:

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Hm. I've tried to read up these websites before posting my doubt.

I think this engine by virtue of its T/W ratio, to be on the safe side, is more akin to the Rocket Turbopump Counter Turbine. Otherwise they wouldn't be a "world first" but rather a rehash of existing technology. the Von Karman institute indeed has studies on Counter Rotating Turbines.

The hard part is the gearing, overall engineering and the complexity in scaling it to military applications
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
We don't know but maybe something like this ( and no guide vanes ) -
Not an expert, but the translated quoted paper says this..
He found another way to focus on the aerodynamic layout of rotation. Through the innovative supercharger principle, he proposed a new subversive engine - using rotation to greatly reduce the number of compressors and turbine series and improve the push-weight ratio.
So the theory should end up with less stages in the series and a lower number of compressors?

1638112747319.jpeg
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Not an expert, but the translated quoted paper says this..

So the theory should end up with less stages in the series and a lower number of compressors?
You and I are likely thinking about the same thing. Although I don't know what "supercharger principle" mean. Maybe a centrifugal compressor ( real deal or a "quasi" one) interspersed?

One can guess.
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Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
You and I are likely thinking about the same thing. Although I don't know what "supercharger principle" mean. Maybe a centrifugal compressor ( real deal or a "quasi" one) interspersed?

One can guess.
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Supercharger is likely a mistranslation, the
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:

徐建中常年从事航空发动机研究,本世纪初他敏锐地发现,航空发动机发展到四代机之后,靠叶片折转提高压比的办法走到了尽头。他另辟蹊径,把目光放到了对转气动布局上,通过创新增压原理,提出一种颠覆性新型发动机——采用对转大大减少压气机和涡轮级数,提高了推重比。
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are many ways of taking advantage of counter-rotation in a gas turbine engine, without a terminologically accurate translation it is hard to know what is being done here.

Counter-rotating LP and HP shafts in two (or three) spool configurations are commonplace these days. There are several advantages, one or the other of which is the reason for adoption depending on whether it is a civilian or military design. In the former case, the low aerodynamic loading improves component efficiency, though at the cost of elevated relative speed in any inter-shaft bearings. Military engines with counter-rotation mitigate gyroscopic effects during low speed maneuvers, the extreme case (and AFAIK the first adopter) being the VTOL Harrier and its Bristol-Siddeley Pegasus.

This layout opens up the opportunity to do away with the stator stage between the high and low pressure turbine altogether, saving quite a bit of weight. However, this limits LP turbine loading, so is not an option for high-BPR airliner engines. Examples are the GE F136 and F136 as well as numerous small turbines like the Soviet TS-21 APU.

Counter-rotating compressors have also been tried, though the higher number of stages than in turbines makes this either cumbersome or virtually inconsequential in effect. The best known example also being one of the earliest turbofans ever built, the WWII German DB 007 - which was a bit crazy, to be frank. Curiously enough, the turbine was single-stage, with basically half the compressor stages (in alternation) being driven directly in one direction on a central shaft, the other half in the opposite sense on the inside of a hollow drum via a gearbox!

The increased relative rotational speed between the stages would enable higher stage pressure ratios and therefore potentially lower stage counts for a given OPR specification. But with simple two-spool engines such as the EJ200 and Izd. 30 nowadays achieving PRs around 30 in as few as 8 stages, I don't quite see the point.
 
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Counter-rotating compressors have also been tried, though the higher number of stages than in turbines makes this either cumbersome or virtually inconsequential in effect. The best known example also being one of the earliest turbofans ever built, the WWII German DB 007 - which was a bit crazy, to be frank. Curiously enough, the turbine was single-stage, with basically half the compressor stages (in alternation) being driven directly in one direction on a central shaft, the other half in the opposite sense on the inside of a hollow drum via a gearbox!

The increased relative rotational speed between the stages would enable higher stage pressure ratios and therefore potentially lower stage counts for a given OPR specification. But with simple two-spool engines such as the EJ200 and Izd. 30 nowadays achieving PRs around 30 in as few as 8 stages, I don't quite see the point.
The T/W ratio ( or thrust specifically) may be the point. PR may remain as good as the top performers of today. The exact way of operation will likely remain obscured.
 
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