It’s probably more of a play on the capital market. Skyrizon and its listed partner Xinwei have very shady reputation both as investors and employers.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
In the long term this will lead to the death of the Ukrainian jet engine industry.
Russia has mostly replaced their Ukrainian jet engine purchases over the last decade including naval engines, helicopter turbines, and trainer aircraft engines.
China has long manufactured its own helicopter turbines and they have long since got all the naval engine technology they needed from Ukraine. That leaves trainer aircraft engines but that problem isn't insurmountable. IIRC the Chinese have made a deal with the Russians to purchase all the technologies from the Zubr hovercraft including the turbine engines from Russia recently as well for example.
Russia has mostly replaced their Ukrainian jet engine purchases over the last decade including naval engines, helicopter turbines, and trainer aircraft engines.
China has long manufactured its own helicopter turbines and they have long since got all the naval engine technology they needed from Ukraine. That leaves trainer aircraft engines but that problem isn't insurmountable. IIRC the Chinese have made a deal with the Russians to purchase all the technologies from the Zubr hovercraft including the turbine engines from Russia recently as well for example.
The problem here with Motor Sich is limited to only the Ai-222 engine for the L-15 trainer. But it's a serious problem for the L-15. This doesn't really affect any naval gas turbines (China's long designed and made it's own) or helicopter engines (western designs) but I suspect part of the purchase of Motor Sich was to boost China's own development speed in turbines and helicopter engines, at least where manufacturing is concerned. Ivchenko Progress design all those engines do they not? The high bypass turbofan expertise is definitely also valuable for China until WS-20 and CJ-1000 programs and their derivatives mature in service. Low bypass military turbofans I'd argue China's well ahead if anything. Russia too have well surpassed Ukraine in that department. Both due to requirements and funding.
So the immediate problem for China is the lack of fast deliveries and large scale supply of engines for L-15 without having to make costly and time consuming amendments so an alternative can be used. This will probably be done on the side as improvements to high end trainer planes are developed in parallel. The immediate engine supply will probably need to be resolved with Russia. Since both have a good trade and political relationship, Russia is unlikely to overburden China in this respect even if it has China by the balls when it comes to negotiating a price otherwise again changes to trade policies will ensue. The other problem is getting at least a portion of that 3.5 billion dollars back.
That's the real bummer to me. That money as a sunk cost could have been put towards boosting China's domestic manufacturing in other ways, if it were known such an outcome would happen. I'm surprised they didn't expect this though. Ukraine uprising wasn't only pushed forward and supported by the US but planned and coordinated initially. This means they hold the reins for the entirety of this Ukraine fiasco and that includes if and how they sell sensitive organisations off. CCP blunder.
I suppose the other side is China recovering the money through other means and learning the lesson. It'll just have long term repercussions for those who robbed them and facilitated that. It'll forever be a case of "remember the time when x,z,y basically stole 3.5 billion dollars from us? Yeah let's NOT help them here or let them do this and that etc". It always balances out if people remember it and such a massive loss is to be remembered. That's the price for about 30 J-20s.
So the immediate problem for China is the lack of fast deliveries and large scale supply of engines for L-15 without having to make costly and time consuming amendments so an alternative can be used. This will probably be done on the side as improvements to high end trainer planes are developed in parallel. The immediate engine supply will probably need to be resolved with Russia. Since both have a good trade and political relationship, Russia is unlikely to overburden China in this respect even if it has China by the balls when it comes to negotiating a price otherwise again changes to trade policies will ensue. The other problem is getting at least a portion of that 3.5 billion dollars back.
That's the real bummer to me. That money as a sunk cost could have been put towards boosting China's domestic manufacturing in other ways, if it were known such an outcome would happen. I'm surprised they didn't expect this though. Ukraine uprising wasn't only pushed forward and supported by the US but planned and coordinated initially. This means they hold the reins for the entirety of this Ukraine fiasco and that includes if and how they sell sensitive organisations off. CCP blunder.
I suppose the other side is China recovering the money through other means and learning the lesson. It'll just have long term repercussions for those who robbed them and facilitated that. It'll forever be a case of "remember the time when x,z,y basically stole 3.5 billion dollars from us? Yeah let's NOT help them here or let them do this and that etc". It always balances out if people remember it and such a massive loss is to be remembered. That's the price for about 30 J-20s.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Via Samsara. Seem like CJ100 program is progressing well but still a long way to go
From OedoSoldier @OedoSoldier on 2021.02.01:
The CJ-1000 engine to be installed on the C919 uses a special titanium-aluminum alloy fan blade developed by the Institute of Metal Research (IMR), Chinese Academy of Sciences, and has twice the specific gravity of conventional nickel-based alloys. The development of CJ-1000 is going well, and CJ-2000 is also being promoted.
The core engine of CJ-2000 succeeded in the first ignition on March 5th last year, achieving a maximum rotation of 100.6%.
The Institute of Metal Research (IMR), CAS 中国科学院金属研究所 was founded in 1953, and has its HQ in Shenyang, the capital and largest city of Liaoning Province. Since then, IMR has firmly established itself as an indispensable base for materials science and engineering research in China.
* * * * *
Introducing nanostructure into materials like metals can produce surprising results. Making the grain size smaller in some metals such as copper can increase strength. Other material properties like conductivity, ductility, and melting point can also be affected by the nanostructure.
Professor Ke Lu wants to understand the mechanisms underlying these findings and develop ways of nanostructuring materials to control their properties. He has created a research group at the Shenyang National Laboratory for Materials Science (SYNL) to explore these questions and provide potential answers for real-world applications. The Institute of Metal Research (IMR) in Shenyang, which is part of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), is home to Lu’s Nanometals Group.
Lab profile: Professor Ke Lu, Institute of Metal Research, CAS
From OedoSoldier @OedoSoldier on 2021.02.01:
The CJ-1000 engine to be installed on the C919 uses a special titanium-aluminum alloy fan blade developed by the Institute of Metal Research (IMR), Chinese Academy of Sciences, and has twice the specific gravity of conventional nickel-based alloys. The development of CJ-1000 is going well, and CJ-2000 is also being promoted.
The core engine of CJ-2000 succeeded in the first ignition on March 5th last year, achieving a maximum rotation of 100.6%.
The Institute of Metal Research (IMR), CAS 中国科学院金属研究所 was founded in 1953, and has its HQ in Shenyang, the capital and largest city of Liaoning Province. Since then, IMR has firmly established itself as an indispensable base for materials science and engineering research in China.
* * * * *
Introducing nanostructure into materials like metals can produce surprising results. Making the grain size smaller in some metals such as copper can increase strength. Other material properties like conductivity, ductility, and melting point can also be affected by the nanostructure.
Professor Ke Lu wants to understand the mechanisms underlying these findings and develop ways of nanostructuring materials to control their properties. He has created a research group at the Shenyang National Laboratory for Materials Science (SYNL) to explore these questions and provide potential answers for real-world applications. The Institute of Metal Research (IMR) in Shenyang, which is part of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), is home to Lu’s Nanometals Group.
Lab profile: Professor Ke Lu, Institute of Metal Research, CAS
Ke Lu's research focuses on processing nanostructured metals and their mechanical behavior.
@Hendrik_2000
Maybe CJ1000 is good to go, I sense no panic on behalf of COMAC when Trump sanction them, and the plan delivery (C919) is on schedule this year.
Does Topwar author know anything more than what we already (not) know about WS-15? Just recycling something from BBS doesn't make Topwar any better than people here.
PiSigma
"the engineer"
Could you not link it to topwar? Ws-15 for j20 and the non existent j31? That's literally the first sentence and I stopped reading, just no need to go on.
The only reliable source on problems with the WS-15 was an excerpt from a book authored by a Chinese Academician. He mentioned that there was quality assurance issues with one-piece casting of fan blades and that the managerial process for domestic engines presents a bigger hurdle than even the gap in design and material engineering. No mention of engine performance issues at high temperature.
Said book was written in 2018.
Said book was written in 2018.