Chinese Engine Development

by78

General
What kind of source do you want? Popular mechanics, forbes, the drive, force comparison ok with you? Or should we pull data from the now defunct ausairpower?
Credible sources. Sources that have a track record of accuracy, of objectivity, of cogency. There are quite a few of those. Topwar.ru is not one of them.

This is not an academic forum.
No, but it's not a fanboy forum either.

Are we supposed to only take manufacturer data?
That would be helpful if any becomes available.

sometimes member post some content to create a discussion topic or to seek verification and whats wrong with that?
Except in this particular instance, a member shared an article from a dubious source, an article that is of exceptionally low quality. One, it's a machine translation of a Russian-language article; two, it's short on facts and long on speculation; three, whatever little purported facts it contains, the conclusions do not logically follow. In other words, it's a meandering hodgepodge of tangentially related thoughts on Chinese engines, based on outdated information and stereotypes, all collected in a single machine-translated article, probably written by a guy named Pavol in a black Adidas tracksuit who ekes out a living repairing rusty
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from a make-shift garage located in Block 9 of the Georgy Malenkov Memorial Communal Apartments in the 3rd District of Novochernorechensky in Krasnoyarsk Krai.

Sinodefence Forum is not a fanboy forum. The flagship threads have a higher standard of information dissemination than other forums such as defence.pk or Reddit. The flagship threads are not for shooting the breeze and bantering over low-quality content. For those, we have Members' Club Room.

The standards have always been high here, and if you don't like it, there are alternatives to SDF that you should probably consider.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Not so much these days. Russia's programs have slowed and stopped through the Soviet collapse and funding remains incomparable to American, British, and French programs. Even if the Russians still have a great industrial, tooling, and scientific base for engineering and building competitive modern turbofans, I don't think they can compare too favourably against US, UK, and France in either military or commercial turbofans.

China's may not have as much collective experience or industrial base that's gone through the same R&D stages the others have, but it has enjoyed immense funding for decades. Even with decades of experience producing parts and licensed units and then domesticated un-licensed units, it's clear that short cuts don't quite exist and even sole projects like WS-10 have taken a considerable effort from the nation's turbofan developers just to master. Something the Americans have done since the F110, arguably even the F100 as a more fitting contextual equivalent.

Russia is still impressive though with all the hindrance but managed to still modernise the mainstay RD-33 and Al-31 and develop the Izd.30. Losing Ukraine was a big blow since a lot of the turbofan industry was placed there during the Soviet era. China is a junior and barely out of training wheels but at least since a few years ago, the WS-10 has been conquered with 10 years of service onboard J-11 fighters and moving onto J-10.

BTW the WS-10 isn't an Al-31 and though I'm not sure if that was suggested in the topwar article, while the WS-13 surely was an uninteresting but perhaps worthwhile copy of the RD-33 with some more modernised additions, the WS-10 is closer to being based off an American engine since the design of its core was based on a high bypass turbofan. WS-15 is the first Chinese engine developed from the lessons and experiences picked up over the last 5 or so decades of building, copying, and modifying various types of turbofans.
Where does Russia source its advanced technology for inspection, fabrication etc from? Isn't Russia under sanctions? So are you saying that Russian companies have managed to keep up in comprehensive technological parity even though it's been cut off from the global network?
Izdeliye 30 is more intriguing than WS-15.

(From what I can see from documentaries and such) Europe's and US's facilities for manufacturing engines are top notch. I've never found such glizz and shine in Russian ones. Or Chinese ones for that matter.

No, Russia isn't upto par with US technology.
I'm intrigued by Izdeliye 30. It's specs are top notch but if it delivers then that means Russia has some Aladdin Magic lamp to make stuff outta thin air. It also mean that all the Trillion dollars spent by US, the combined experience of Civilian - Military engine makers of US as well as its huge pool of Human resources are just a shoddy lie.
I said Russia’s *design* capabilities are on par with the EU’s and the US’s. That design capability is a reflection of the maturity of their research knowledge and experience. Their design capabilities don’t translate to products because Russia often doesn’t have resources to complete the rest of the development process. That doesn’t mean that their expertise is a mirage.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I said Russia’s *design* capabilities are on par with the EU’s and the US’s. That design capability is a reflection of the maturity of their research knowledge and experience. Their design capabilities don’t translate to products because Russia often doesn’t have resources to complete the rest of the development process. That doesn’t mean that their expertise is a mirage.
So? All that means is Russia is really good at fantasizing engines. I don't see why having no follow-through should give them respect or make their "designs", which are never going to be seen outside of CAD files, some kind of benchmark.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
So? All that means is Russia is really good at fantasizing engines. I don't see why having no follow-through should give them respect or make their "designs", which are never going to be seen outside of CAD files, some kind of benchmark.

This really shouldn't be anything controversial to state that Russia today still has an accumulated, experienced reservoir of aerospace and aeroengine expertise that is still world leading.
Yes, the funding and industrial resources may not be there for the follow through to happen in the way they may otherwise wish, but it is a massive overreach to suggest that said accumulated experience and expertise is somehow not an important benchmark or threshold.


Having the funding and willingness to commit resources to an industry is important, yes but expertise and the experience is as equally important. Ideally you'd have both.
But just because you lack one of them doesn't mean you cannot acknowledge the vital importance of the other.
Let's be a little less gratuitous with the sweeping statements.


And as far as developing and producing aeroengines go like turbofans, your expertise in designing the engine from the early stage is important in determining its longer term potential. The idea that Izd 30 could be a more advanced or capable design than WS-15 shouldn't be that controversial given the level of expertise of each nation's respective industries at the time each engine was being designed.

But whether one engine is "better" than the other is a different matter -- being a more advanced or capable design doesn't mean that you are able to procure them in larger numbers in the long term or have the industry to be able to scale production in the future (though at the same time I'm not suggesting either of the engines will necessarily see an advantage in this domain either), and of course you need to have the rest of the aircraft sufficiently mature and produced in large numbers with the requisite operational costs and expertise established as well.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
So? All that means is Russia is really good at fantasizing engines. I don't see why having no follow-through should give them respect or make their "designs", which are never going to be seen outside of CAD files, some kind of benchmark.

Designing is half the battle and I don't think anyone receives funding for designs that can't have some good chance of eventually becoming batch produced at least.

Izd.30 details are lacking so everyone will have to wait with patience before we see how impressive or meh it ends up being. Same with the WS-15. Only thing that's clear is both Russia and China is well behind the US when it comes to turbofans. Although China's ability to produce the super alloys required and mastering single crystal blades years ago has given China a much needed boost to catch up to Russia. There's also been the hollow crystal fabrication which I think is something that's exclusive to US and China now? Then there's the hole forming tech using lasers which is yet another major catch up effort which is also pretty exclusive if I recall, if not entirely pioneered in China. There were a handful of small innovations to turbofan manufacturing processes that were revealed a few years ago.

Russia is still drained of funding and doesn't appear like it will have the economy to pour money into defence tech that could allow it to match or exceed the US in some areas like it used to be. So the long term outlook for Russian engines isn't the brightest but they may focus on some new niches and still excel in innovating totally new technologies.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Whatever merits there are to the counterarguments to my position (very little, in my view), I want to stress again that this discussion was instigated by a troll article posted by an alt of a permanently banned, mentally ill member. Precisely the kind of thing there's been a recent push to curtail in the flagship threads.

Anyway, best of luck to Russia (the real topic of discussion in the Chinese engine thread) with its fantasy engine goals in 2021; I can't wait to see what its boundless imagination conjures up in the coming years. I'm sure that - as was the case with the
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- Russia won't be mass-producing them because they're just so good, it's got to give its opponents a sporting chance, don'tcha know.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Whatever merits there are to the counterarguments to my position (very little, in my view), I want to stress again that this discussion was instigated by a troll article posted by an alt of a permanently banned, mentally ill member. Precisely the kind of thing there's been a recent push to curtail in the flagship threads.

Anyway, best of luck to Russia (the real topic of discussion in the Chinese engine thread) with its fantasy engine goals in 2021; I can't wait to see what its boundless imagination conjures up in the coming years. I'm sure that - as was the case with the
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- Russia won't be mass-producing them because they're just so good, it's got to give its opponents a sporting chance, don'tcha know.
The engine has already flown. It’s not a fantasy engine. By your logic the WS-15 must also be a fantasy engine.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Russia is still drained of funding and doesn't appear like it will have the economy to pour money into defence tech that could allow it to match or exceed the US in some areas like it used to be. So the long term outlook for Russian engines isn't the brightest but they may focus on some new niches and still excel in innovating totally new technologies.
I think Russia might be a bit constrained in mass procurement, but it seems pretty clear now that they have the money to at least modernize their designs relative to their actual R&D capabilities. This isn’t the 90s or early 2000s anymore. While the Russian economy isn’t massive it’s not exactly in that same dismal state anymore. Far from it, actually.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
This really shouldn't be anything controversial to state that Russia today still has an accumulated, experienced reservoir of aerospace and aeroengine expertise that is still world leading.
Yes, the funding and industrial resources may not be there for the follow through to happen in the way they may otherwise wish, but it is a massive overreach to suggest that said accumulated experience and expertise is somehow not an important benchmark or threshold.


Having the funding and willingness to commit resources to an industry is important, yes but expertise and the experience is as equally important. Ideally you'd have both.
But just because you lack one of them doesn't mean you cannot acknowledge the vital importance of the other.
Let's be a little less gratuitous with the sweeping statements.


And as far as developing and producing aeroengines go like turbofans, your expertise in designing the engine from the early stage is important in determining its longer term potential. The idea that Izd 30 could be a more advanced or capable design than WS-15 shouldn't be that controversial given the level of expertise of each nation's respective industries at the time each engine was being designed.

But whether one engine is "better" than the other is a different matter -- being a more advanced or capable design doesn't mean that you are able to procure them in larger numbers in the long term or have the industry to be able to scale production in the future (though at the same time I'm not suggesting either of the engines will necessarily see an advantage in this domain either), and of course you need to have the rest of the aircraft sufficiently mature and produced in large numbers with the requisite operational costs and expertise established as well.

Yep, it depend a lot of the use you will do with the engines... It's hard to compare doctrines and economic conditions anyway... the best way to evaluate an engine is to determine if it's a good step from the last generation of engine a country designed. Comparing to other is fun but somewhat irrelevant a lot of times.

Engine with short life span but easy to change is quite usefull when you don't have time or facility to make maintenance, like in a long war. You just make a stock pile for the bad times to change swiftly low cost and cheap to manufacture engines. We can see a lot of Russian design using this doctrine.

Hard to manufacture high tech engines, with long life span are awesome in peace times and short war. But maintenance is a key element that need overhaul facilities and time. Maybe you get 10% more power but if your planes have insane maintenance time and you don't have enough plane to replace the grounded ones... it's a bit futile.
 
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Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not so much these days. Russia's programs have slowed and stopped through the Soviet collapse and funding remains incomparable to American, British, and French programs. Even if the Russians still have a great industrial, tooling, and scientific base for engineering and building competitive modern turbofans, I don't think they can compare too favourably against US, UK, and France in either military or commercial turbofans.

Funding is certainly modest compared to the US or China, but the UK and France are a different matter. Russia is indeed weak in commercial turbofans, mostly because the Soviet Union collapsed just as it was closing the gap with the West in this particular engine sector. As a result, projects to build modern high-BPR widebody counterparts to the GE90 and RR Trent like the NK-44 and innovative UHB architectures like the D-27 and NK-93 for civilian airliners never achieved production (though both of the latter flew). Nonetheless, the D-18T and PS-90A were technology-wise creditable competitors to the contemporary PW2000 and RR RB.211 family.

Since the late 2000s Russia is clawing back that lost ground though - the SaM146 exposed them to Western design an production practices as well as experience with international MRO requirements. The latter part was pretty painful, but contrary to superficial perceptions, the blame for some of the related issues actually falls squarely at Safran's feet and in any case it was a valuable lesson. More importantly, the entirely Russian PD-14 is coming along well, having wrapped up flight testing and achieved Russian certification in 2018, and approaches PW1100G and LEAP-1 level of technology*.

There's still a decent chance we'll see it fly on its intended application (the MS-21) before the year is out, it has already been installed on the aircraft and started up on the ground. How long before a C919 flies powered by two CJ-1000As? The PD-14 was at the stage where that engine is now more than 5 years ago! Next up will be the PD-35 for the CR929, where component testing is now underway - it should end up comparable to the GENx with composite fan blades (recently tested), composite fan casing, laminar flow nacelle and CMCs in the HPT.

* 3D blade aerodynamics, advanced single-crystal HPT turbine alloys with 1850K operating temp, hollow TiAL-alloy LPT, 3D printed fuel injectors, ceramic-tiled low-emission combustor, HPC with *higher* stage-PR than GTF/LEAP, LEAP-style O-duct thrust reverser with electro-mechanical actuation, nacelle with 60% composite construction including thrust reverser cascades... do you want me to go on? It's perhaps easier to put it this way: compared to the LEAP-1 it lacks only composite fan blades (have been recently tested in preparation for the PD-35 though), a composite fan casing and CMCs in stationary HPT components.

Russia is still impressive though with all the hindrance but managed to still modernise the mainstay RD-33 and Al-31 and develop the Izd.30. Losing Ukraine was a big blow since a lot of the turbofan industry was placed there during the Soviet era.

Not as big as the blow to Ukraine of losing Russia though ;) As much as 60% of engines designed/built by Progress/Motor-Sich is contributed by Russia (the entire low-pressure system on the D-18T, for example). The impact largely depends on how the supply chain of the individual companies and sometimes individual engine you are looking at developed in the Soviet era - it's not as though certain competencies were only available in Ukraine. For example, Klimov lost the vast majority of its production and MRO capacity for TV3-117 turboshafts (for which it is the design authority), but the RD-33 is virtually unaffected.

Izd.30 details are lacking so everyone will have to wait with patience before we see how impressive or meh it ends up being.

As compared to what - the WS-15? Due to secrecy, the information is scattered around various obscure sources, but it is credible (leaked photos, leaked company presentations, press releases by the developing company's competitors, an interview with a designer). If you put it all together and extrapolate a bit from the "white-world" progress achieved on the civilian PD-14, it is possible to form a pretty detailed picture - more detailed in some regards than publicly available info on the 20 year old F119! And the picture you get is that it's very advanced - at least half a generation beyond the likes of the F119 and EJ200 (possibly more, if the designer's hints at a VCE architecture come true - still on the fence there).

So we know within fairly close bounds some important Izd.30 specs, have seen photos of various parts and it is confirmed to have been in flight testing since late 2017. By contrast, the WS-15 is a nebulous mass of rumours that may or may not be accurate - and even if you give them the benefit of the doubt it doesn't match what we know fairly certainly on Izd.30.

There's also been the hollow crystal fabrication which I think is something that's exclusive to US and China now?

Hollow single crystal turbine blades for cooling air are an old hat. Maybe not for China, but Russia applied that to later batches of the vanilla AL-31F (which probably accounts for at least some of the durability enhancements) and PS-90A. Or perhaps you refer to hollow TiAL-compound LPT blades (for weight saving)? Well, the PD-14 has those, while the CJ-1000A does not - despite the fact that RR manufactures such blades for its engines in China. Perhaps an indication that building to print according to a process installed by a foreign company is not the same thing as having mastered the technology yourself.

Then there's the hole forming tech using lasers which is yet another major catch up effort which is also pretty exclusive if I recall, if not entirely pioneered in China.

A rationalization technology for saving production cost, not an enabler. Alternative processes (which are much slower though) have been available for years, and the Russians like lasers in manufacturing, so I wouldn't exclude the possibility that they have something similar available.

Russia is still drained of funding and doesn't appear like it will have the economy to pour money into defence tech that could allow it to match or exceed the US in some areas like it used to be. So the long term outlook for Russian engines isn't the brightest but they may focus on some new niches and still excel in innovating totally new technologies.

Well, how do you account for the ability of RR to keep up with the US manufacturers?

Where does Russia source its advanced technology for inspection, fabrication etc from? Isn't Russia under sanctions? So are you saying that Russian companies have managed to keep up in comprehensive technological parity even though it's been cut off from the global network?

The answer is that they developed most of it themselves. Throughout the Cold War they were operating in even greater isolation than today, resulting in an aerospace industry that is probably the most self-sufficient outside the US. For example, powder metallurgy turbomachinery discs are actually a Soviet/Russian invention and nobody else seriously attempted to build large titanium submarines (though the UK considered it for the W-class).

Slap similar sanctions on Western Europe or China and the disruption would be far greater. Look how quickly Russia has been able to compensate for the cut-off in CFRP raw material supply for the novel MS-21 wing - a sample made from the domestic replacement materials passed static testing recently. This decision to sanction Irkut may well backfire incidentally, because it makes this efficient process available for Russian military projects with far fewer strings attached. I doubt they would have dared to use it for PAK-DA previously, but now it's a distinct possibility.

All in all, the post-Soviet gap is not as big in military engines as you might think. At the time, projects to develop M88/F414/EJ200/F119 class engines were well advanced, to the point that the AL-41F (not the current one, known as Izd.117/117S, but the Izd.20 VCE) even flew. It didn't enter production, but produced some advances in the state of the art in Russia nonetheless - as latenlazy says, design capabilities suffered hardly any set-back at all. Production merely skipped one generation (M88/F414/EJ200/F119) but continued evolution of the AL-31F series limits the damage.
 
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