Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
The owner of Motor Sich and a Chinese firm already reached a takeover agreement some years back. Then John Bolton flew in and threatened the Ukraine's gov to intervene and stop the sale. Threat is of course in forms of freezing aid, supporrt against Russia. Reason given is the usual saint to protect Ukrainian workers from losing their job with new Chinese owner. True intent is to prevent China from learning Motor's know-how in making crucial gas turbine/engines.
The urss ended almost 30 years ago. I doubt that Ukraine´s engine tech has advanced that much since then. Is china that needy about ukraine´s engine tech ???
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Definitely yes China need of jet engine is vast from fighter to transport all the way to trainer. The country cannot be expected to produce all of them domestically due to late entry in this field .So she has to prioritize the engine development. There has been a lot of success eg WS10 now matured and has been produced in large number while sprinting to finish development for WS 15. But there are other engine requirement beside fighter think of STOL transport(turbo prop), turbo shaft engine or Jet trainer like JL 10 they too need engine AL-222 produced by Motor Sich. And China would love to produced it in large number domestically. Some of manufacturing already done in China and they transferred Ukrainian engineer and production facilities to China.
As I understand Skytron bought Motor sich but cannot realized control due to interference of Ukrainian government
Motor Sich has large selection of jet engine, turbo prop etc But they cannot sell it to Russian and Their technology is behind so no western jet maker will bouy their engine Leave alone they will bankrupt and lay of thousand of engineers and skill technician ending Ukrainian aero space engine .But due to their dependence on the west they cannot antagonize the west So they are in the jammed right now
| AI-222 | |
|---|---|
| Type | |
| National origin | |
| Manufacturer | (development) / (Ukraine) and (Russia) (manufacturing) |
| First run | 2003 |
| Major applications | |
| Developed from |
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Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Dont know about the reliability of this news Sound too good to be true! Please comment but don't kill the massenger kill the message if you can prove it Somebody posted this on CDF Figaro must be jumping up and down for joy if it true. Who is Song xinzhi?
Google translate follow next page
Here is the gist
In the program on August 26th, Song Xinzhi confirmed that the J20 is equipped with two engines
A few days ago, domestic military expert Song Xinzhi confirmed in his column Song Xinzhi Observation Room that the J20 fighter jet was equipped with two types of engines. The earlier-equipped engine was WS10B with a thrust of 14-15 tons and was equipped with a vector nozzle. The latter is equipped with the WS15 engine.
The second engine equipped with J20 is WS15.
Google translate follow next page
Here is the gist
In the program on August 26th, Song Xinzhi confirmed that the J20 is equipped with two engines
A few days ago, domestic military expert Song Xinzhi confirmed in his column Song Xinzhi Observation Room that the J20 fighter jet was equipped with two types of engines. The earlier-equipped engine was WS10B with a thrust of 14-15 tons and was equipped with a vector nozzle. The latter is equipped with the WS15 engine.
The second engine equipped with J20 is WS15.
| 8月26日的节目中宋心之证实了J20装备了两种发动机 前几天国内军事专家宋心之在其栏目宋心之观察室中证实，J20战斗机装备了两种型号的发动机，前期装备的发动机是WS10B，推力在14-15吨，而且是配备了矢量喷管的。后期装备的是WS15发动机。 J20装备的第二种发动机是WS15. 关于J20的发动机，实际上去年我们就多次讨论过这一话题，J20从试飞开始一直到服役用的发动机就是WS10B。（关于J20发动机走过的历程，文章末尾有我们去年发的多篇文章的链接，文中对WS10B和WS15有更详细的介绍）。这与很多人的想象不同，网上大部分人认为J20早期装备的发动机是俄罗斯的AL31发动机，后来又换上了国产太行发动机。或者一开始用的太行发动机，后来换了WS10B等等。这些观点判断发动机型号的唯一的一个依据就是尾喷口，事实证明这些判断完全不靠普。最终这些观点也都被证实都是错误的。 WS10B也是有矢量推力的. 那么，这篇文章我们就来简单回顾一下J20配套发动机研制的过程。我国计划研制的第一型第五代战斗机J20计划在2011年年初首飞，配套的发动机也是十一级推重比的WS15发动机。我国对于研制推比十一级的发动机实际上很早就有规划的。到2005左右我国推比十一级的高推核心机已经接近研制完成，WS15发动机也于2006年年初正式立项。但是实际上当时高推核心机的高空台试车仍未达标，直到2009年年底高推核心机的高空台试车才完全达标。受这些技术条件的限制，如果按部就班的走完验证机、原型机等两个研制阶段，WS15最终的研制进度赶不上J20在2011年的首飞。 J20作为空军最重要的项目是不可能延误的。所以在当时的官方文件中就提到一个过渡动力装置的名词。这个所谓过渡动力装置就是WS10B发动机，在J20用上WS15之前，就用这个WS10B发动机来做过渡。这个发动机实际上就是将高推核心机再加上太行发动机的风扇以及低压涡轮串装而成的。其实在高推核心机研制阶段就是这样干的。实际上在核心机阶段是不需要配套外涵道的，但是当时的江河浦总师是非常有远见。在高推核心机研制阶段就给高推核心机配套了太行发动机的风扇和低压涡轮，在核心机阶段就把验证机的工作给干了，大大缩短后续发动机的研制周期。 当时在2007年左右国内的官方媒体曾报道过一个加力推力155千牛推重比为9.5的太行改型发动机，这个发动机就是WS10B发动机。 WS10B原计划15.5吨推力. 实际上此时的WS10B指标定的是比较高的，为了降低技术难度加快进度，又调低了技术指标。这样WS10B的中间状态推力就降到10吨以下大概97千牛左右，加力推力144千牛。前两年深圳卫视在报道J10C服役的时候提到过WS10B的性能。称中间状态推力超过90千牛，加力推力144千牛。这里说的超过90千牛是很有讲究的，因为说得太清楚会直接暴露WS10B的核心机。那么当时为何不先用太行发动机或者AL31给J20来试飞，而一定要用高推核心机呢？根本原因在于第五代战斗机对发动机中间状态推力的要求比上一代发动机高很多，J20要想实现超音速巡航，中间状态推力也要接近10吨。而太行发动机和AL31发动机的中间状态推力基本上都在7.5吨左右，无论如何是无法实现的，即使改进也完全无法实现。 这是国内某发动机总师的观点. 因为需要提高的幅度相当于从推比8提高到推比10，这是太行或者AL31的核心机完全做不到。即使能够改进最终也会改得面目全非，这样做相当于重新研制一代发动机，既然如此，已经有现成的高推核心机，拿来用就是。所以J20用的过渡动力也是在高推核心机上起步开始做的。 最终WS10B在仅仅完成300小时试飞后就装上了J20的验证机，在2011年1月11日完成了首飞。试飞初期WS10B并未配备矢量喷口，只是到了2016号原型以后才配备了矢量喷口，一直到J20试飞完毕服役，也就是说J20正式服役时用的就是矢量推力版的WS10B。2018年珠海航展上，总设计杨伟在答记者问上也委婉的表示J20已经用上了矢量推力发动机。 在去年发的文章中，我们把J20配套发动机的发展历程总结为三步曲，第一步高推核心机配太行发动机的低压端，中间状态推力97千牛左右，加力推力144千牛。这一阶段型号名称为WS10B。第二步恢复技术参数到原设计状态，中间状态推力108千牛，加力推力156千牛，比原计划的155千牛略高，这个指标已经可以追上美国F119发动机，型号为WS15。自2017年9月在2021号原型机上开始试飞。第三步全新研制风扇和低压涡轮，将高推核心机的潜力完全发挥出来，这个就是WS15的完全版，加力推力18吨左右。据宋心之所述，WS15推重比已经达到10.8到10.9的样子，其加力推力耗油率为1.98比F119的2.4好了不少。我们去年的推测大部分已经被宋心之证实，至于第二步目前还没有被完全证实，或许今年的珠海航展上会有新的消息。 |
Last edited:
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Google translation
In the program on August 26th, Song Xinzhi confirmed that the J20 is equipped with two engines
A few days ago, domestic military expert Song Xinzhi confirmed in his column Song Xinzhi Observation Room that the J20 fighter jet was equipped with two types of engines. The earlier-equipped engine was WS10B with a thrust of 14-15 tons and was equipped with a vector nozzle. The latter is equipped with the WS15 engine.
The second engine equipped with J20 is WS15.
Regarding the J20 engine, we actually discussed this topic many times last year. The engine used for the J20 from the test flight to the service is the WS10B. (About the journey of the J20 engine, there are links to many articles we published last year at the end of the article. The article has a more detailed introduction to WS10B and WS15). This is different from the imagination of many people. Most people on the Internet believe that the early J20 equipped with the Russian AL31 engine was later replaced with a domestic Taihang engine. Or the Taihang engine was used at the beginning, and then replaced with WS10B and so on. The only basis for these opinions to judge the engine model is the tail nozzle. Facts have proved that these judgments are completely unreliable. In the end, these views were all proved to be wrong.
WS10B also has vector thrust.
So, in this article, we will briefly review the development process of the J20 supporting engine. The first fifth-generation fighter jet J20 planned to be developed by my country is scheduled to fly for the first time in early 2011. The supporting engine is also the WS15 engine with an eleventh thrust-to-weight ratio. my country actually had a plan for the development of an engine with a push ratio eleven. By 2005, my country's push ratio eleven high-power core engine was nearly completed, and the WS15 engine was formally approved in early 2006. But in fact, the high-altitude platform test run of the high-propulsion core machine still failed to meet the standard at the time. Restricted by these technical conditions, if the two development stages of the verification machine and the prototype are completed step by step, the final development progress of the WS15 will not be able to keep up with the first flight of the J20 in 2011.
As the most important project of the Air Force, J20 cannot be delayed. Therefore, a term of transitional power plant was mentioned in the official documents at that time. This so-called transitional power device is the WS10B engine. Before the J20 used the WS15, the WS10B engine was used for transition.
This engine is actually a high-power core engine coupled with the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine in series. In fact, this is how it was done in the development stage of the high-profile core machine. In fact, there is no need for supporting external ducts at the core machine stage, but Jiang Hepu's chief engineer at that time was very farsighted. In the development stage of the high-power core engine, the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine were matched to the high-power core engine, and the work of the verification engine was done at the core engine stage, which greatly shortened the development cycle of subsequent engines.
At that time, around 2007, domestic official media reported a modified Taihang engine with an afterburner thrust of 155 kN and a thrust-to-weight ratio of 9.5. This engine was the WS10B engine.
The WS10B was originally planned for 15.5 tons of thrust.
In fact, the WS10B index at this time was set to be relatively high. In order to reduce the technical difficulty and speed up the progress, the technical index was lowered. In this way, the thrust of the WS10B in the intermediate state drops to about 97 kN below 10 tons, and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. In the past two years, Shenzhen Satellite TV mentioned the performance of WS10B when reporting the J10C service. It is said that the thrust of the intermediate state exceeds 90 kN, and the thrust of afterburner is 144 kN. The more than 90 kN mentioned here is very particular, because speaking too clearly will directly expose the core machine of WS10B.
So why didn't you use Taihang engine or AL31 to test the J20 first, but must use the high-power core engine? The fundamental reason is that the fifth-generation fighter has much higher requirements for the intermediate state thrust of the engine than the previous generation engine. If the J20 wants to achieve supersonic cruise, the intermediate state thrust must be close to 10 tons. The intermediate state thrust of Taihang engine and AL31 engine is basically about 7.5 tons, which is impossible to achieve in any case, even if it is improved, it is completely impossible to achieve.
This is the view of a domestic engine chief.
Because the magnitude of improvement is equivalent to an increase from push ratio 8 to push ratio 10. This is completely impossible for the core machine of Taihang or AL31. Even if it can be improved, it will eventually be changed beyond recognition. This is equivalent to re-developing a generation of engines. In this case, there are ready-made high-power core engines that can be used. Therefore, the transitional power used by the J20 was also started on the high-power core machine.
In the end, the WS10B was fitted with a J20 demonstrator after only 300 hours of test flight, and the first flight was completed on January 11, 2011. The WS10B was not equipped with a vector nozzle at the beginning of the flight test. It was only equipped with a vector nozzle after the 2016 prototype. It was not equipped with a vector nozzle until the J20 test flight was completed, which means that the J20 used the vector thrust version of the WS10B when it was officially in service. At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2018, Chief Designer Yang Wei also euphemistically said in response to reporters that the J20 has used a vector thrust engine.
In the article published last year, we summarized the development of the J20 supporting engine into a three-step process. The first step is to push the core engine with the low-pressure end of the Taihang engine. The intermediate state thrust is about 97 kN and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. . The model name at this stage is WS10B. The second step is to restore the technical parameters to the original design state. In the intermediate state, the thrust is 108 kN and the afterburning thrust is 156 kN, which is slightly higher than the original plan of 155 kN. This index can already catch up with the American F119 engine, model WS15.
The test flight began on the 2021 prototype in September 2017. The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this
In the program on August 26th, Song Xinzhi confirmed that the J20 is equipped with two engines
A few days ago, domestic military expert Song Xinzhi confirmed in his column Song Xinzhi Observation Room that the J20 fighter jet was equipped with two types of engines. The earlier-equipped engine was WS10B with a thrust of 14-15 tons and was equipped with a vector nozzle. The latter is equipped with the WS15 engine.
The second engine equipped with J20 is WS15.
Regarding the J20 engine, we actually discussed this topic many times last year. The engine used for the J20 from the test flight to the service is the WS10B. (About the journey of the J20 engine, there are links to many articles we published last year at the end of the article. The article has a more detailed introduction to WS10B and WS15). This is different from the imagination of many people. Most people on the Internet believe that the early J20 equipped with the Russian AL31 engine was later replaced with a domestic Taihang engine. Or the Taihang engine was used at the beginning, and then replaced with WS10B and so on. The only basis for these opinions to judge the engine model is the tail nozzle. Facts have proved that these judgments are completely unreliable. In the end, these views were all proved to be wrong.
WS10B also has vector thrust.
So, in this article, we will briefly review the development process of the J20 supporting engine. The first fifth-generation fighter jet J20 planned to be developed by my country is scheduled to fly for the first time in early 2011. The supporting engine is also the WS15 engine with an eleventh thrust-to-weight ratio. my country actually had a plan for the development of an engine with a push ratio eleven. By 2005, my country's push ratio eleven high-power core engine was nearly completed, and the WS15 engine was formally approved in early 2006. But in fact, the high-altitude platform test run of the high-propulsion core machine still failed to meet the standard at the time. Restricted by these technical conditions, if the two development stages of the verification machine and the prototype are completed step by step, the final development progress of the WS15 will not be able to keep up with the first flight of the J20 in 2011.
As the most important project of the Air Force, J20 cannot be delayed. Therefore, a term of transitional power plant was mentioned in the official documents at that time. This so-called transitional power device is the WS10B engine. Before the J20 used the WS15, the WS10B engine was used for transition.
This engine is actually a high-power core engine coupled with the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine in series. In fact, this is how it was done in the development stage of the high-profile core machine. In fact, there is no need for supporting external ducts at the core machine stage, but Jiang Hepu's chief engineer at that time was very farsighted. In the development stage of the high-power core engine, the fan and low-pressure turbine of the Taihang engine were matched to the high-power core engine, and the work of the verification engine was done at the core engine stage, which greatly shortened the development cycle of subsequent engines.
At that time, around 2007, domestic official media reported a modified Taihang engine with an afterburner thrust of 155 kN and a thrust-to-weight ratio of 9.5. This engine was the WS10B engine.
The WS10B was originally planned for 15.5 tons of thrust.
In fact, the WS10B index at this time was set to be relatively high. In order to reduce the technical difficulty and speed up the progress, the technical index was lowered. In this way, the thrust of the WS10B in the intermediate state drops to about 97 kN below 10 tons, and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. In the past two years, Shenzhen Satellite TV mentioned the performance of WS10B when reporting the J10C service. It is said that the thrust of the intermediate state exceeds 90 kN, and the thrust of afterburner is 144 kN. The more than 90 kN mentioned here is very particular, because speaking too clearly will directly expose the core machine of WS10B.
So why didn't you use Taihang engine or AL31 to test the J20 first, but must use the high-power core engine? The fundamental reason is that the fifth-generation fighter has much higher requirements for the intermediate state thrust of the engine than the previous generation engine. If the J20 wants to achieve supersonic cruise, the intermediate state thrust must be close to 10 tons. The intermediate state thrust of Taihang engine and AL31 engine is basically about 7.5 tons, which is impossible to achieve in any case, even if it is improved, it is completely impossible to achieve.
This is the view of a domestic engine chief.
Because the magnitude of improvement is equivalent to an increase from push ratio 8 to push ratio 10. This is completely impossible for the core machine of Taihang or AL31. Even if it can be improved, it will eventually be changed beyond recognition. This is equivalent to re-developing a generation of engines. In this case, there are ready-made high-power core engines that can be used. Therefore, the transitional power used by the J20 was also started on the high-power core machine.
In the end, the WS10B was fitted with a J20 demonstrator after only 300 hours of test flight, and the first flight was completed on January 11, 2011. The WS10B was not equipped with a vector nozzle at the beginning of the flight test. It was only equipped with a vector nozzle after the 2016 prototype. It was not equipped with a vector nozzle until the J20 test flight was completed, which means that the J20 used the vector thrust version of the WS10B when it was officially in service. At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2018, Chief Designer Yang Wei also euphemistically said in response to reporters that the J20 has used a vector thrust engine.
In the article published last year, we summarized the development of the J20 supporting engine into a three-step process. The first step is to push the core engine with the low-pressure end of the Taihang engine. The intermediate state thrust is about 97 kN and the afterburner thrust is 144 kN. . The model name at this stage is WS10B. The second step is to restore the technical parameters to the original design state. In the intermediate state, the thrust is 108 kN and the afterburning thrust is 156 kN, which is slightly higher than the original plan of 155 kN. This index can already catch up with the American F119 engine, model WS15.
The test flight began on the 2021 prototype in September 2017. The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this
Hate to disappoint you but most public Chinese military experts are also in the dark and rely greatly on guess work.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
This is pretty BS imo. Not only does it claims the J-20 has never used AL-31s, contradicting other (official?) sources we know that claim the J-20 uses AL-31s that have been domestically enhanced, but it also claims that the WS-10B uses a new core identical with the WS-15 but uses the fan and turbines stages of the WS-10, which doesn’t line up with any sensible understanding of the typical development pipeline for jet engines, given that the complex dependencies between the design of each stage in an engine inhibits modularity of stages from different engine designs (as the original designers of the WS-10 found out the hard way when they tried to modify the CFM-56 into a military turbofan).
