Chinese Engine Development

I know we mentioned UK, US, France and Russia as having the tech for a F-119 level engine. But I would also argue Japan and Germany, also have that technology, as they have advanced gas turbine industries. Japan developed their own F-119 class engine called the XF-9 pretty quickly. This is because a lot of the same tech that goes into gas turbines can be used in airplane engines. This is why China needs to leverage its own power generation industry to get a domestic gas turbine industry off the ground. Then in the future this knowledge will transfer over to military engines. Which will shorten the development time of future engines.

free_6ix9ine said:

I know we mentioned UK, US, France and Russia as having the tech for a F-119 level engine. But I would also argue Japan and Germany, also have that technology, as they have advanced gas turbine industries. Japan developed their own F-119 class engine called the XF-9 pretty quickly. This is because a lot of the same tech that goes into gas turbines can be used in airplane engines. This is why China needs to leverage its own power generation industry to get a domestic gas turbine industry off the ground. Then in the future this knowledge will transfer over to military engines. Which will shorten the development time of future engines.

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Based on the slides we saw last year From the Japanese the xf-9 was roughly at the similar stage of ws-15 in between 2005-2010? where it’s core engine design was roughly finalized and tested. But ws-15 has major modifications over its design, so I will assume xf-9 would be slight faster, but still there is about 10 years at least to go for xf-9

and in case you may not know, the Chinese adaptive variable cycle engine project has been running smoothly for few years. So with the experience of ws-10 and ws-15 development, my guess is the next gen Chinese engine would come out much quicker than many people expected

free_6ix9ine said:

I know we mentioned UK, US, France and Russia as having the tech for a F-119 level engine. But I would also argue Japan and Germany, also have that technology, as they have advanced gas turbine industries. Japan developed their own F-119 class engine called the XF-9 pretty quickly. This is because a lot of the same tech that goes into gas turbines can be used in airplane engines. This is why China needs to leverage its own power generation industry to get a domestic gas turbine industry off the ground. Then in the future this knowledge will transfer over to military engines. Which will shorten the development time of future engines.

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But there was a news that Japan was seeking cooperation with Rolce Royce of UK for the XF-10 engine. That would mean that a testbed XF-9 isn't a mass production engine. There were also some mentions of SiC SiC Composites to further achieve better heat tolerance and therefore efficiency and thrust rating.

IMHO, the Japanese XF-9 is a testbed to develop certain advanced technologies (high electrical power generation, composites etc) but I doubt if Japan would go solo for equipping its F-3 fighters with IHI engines. The better results XF program gives Japan, the better its position in negotiations with a foreign partner.

I'm sure Pratt and Whitney won't pick up IHI for a JV. They'd want to sell Japan an entire engine. Idk about GE, but I don't think GE is that interested.

But a Japan - UK JV is on the horizon and it does sound like it is going to materialize. Especially, as of recently UK and Japan went through the sale of ARM to Softbank.

My bet is on a IHI - Rolce Royce JV. This means that Tempest and F-3 would sport the same engines (or share a good deal of technology). Rolce Royce is also well established in mass producing and servicing engines so Japan would want such a partner rather than solely bet on IHI.

Figaro said:

Apparently Pupu just said that the next batch of J-20s will feature thrust enhanced Taihangs (the 14.5 tonne variant?) and that a new 16 tonne WS-10 variant was being developed. As for the designations, Pupu said the WS-10B had roughly 14 tonnes of thrust, not sure about the others.

As for the WS-15, the only news we got was that it entered flight tests on an aircraft that wasn't the J-20 (probably the J-11) back in April of last year. Haven't heard anything since ... hopefully no news means good news.

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Any news from ws-20 ?

stannislas said:

Based on the slides we saw last year From the Japanese the xf-9 was roughly at the similar stage of ws-15 in between 2005-2010? where it’s core engine design was roughly finalized and tested. But ws-15 has major modifications over its design, so I will assume xf-9 would be slight faster, but still there is about 10 years at least to go for xf-9

and in case you may not know, the Chinese adaptive variable cycle engine project has been running smoothly for few years. So with the experience of ws-10 and ws-15 development, my guess is the next gen Chinese engine would come out much quicker than many people expected

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Agreed. But regardless, I still an advanced civil gas turbine power generation industry will help China in the future, by providing access to foreign technology to shore up some of the current deficiencies such as MTBO. Power generation gas turbines and jet engines are a pretty mature industry, there is no need to start from scratch if we can leverage foreign technology.

A power generation gas turbine industry will also provide China with economy of scale for developing jet engines as well, same materials, same production processes, same talent pool, etc. There is alot of overlap in the two, so the cost of developing new engines will come down as well.

Also, we don/t know much about the WS-15 in terms of specs. But the Japanese have much more experience than China with gas turbines, so I wouldn't be surprised if the XF-9 has better performance than the WS-15 (besides max. thrust), such as MTBO, fuel efficiency, etc.

Xsizor said:

But there was a news that Japan was seeking cooperation with Rolce Royce of UK for the XF-10 engine. That would mean that a testbed XF-9 isn't a mass production engine. There were also some mentions of SiC SiC Composites to further achieve better heat tolerance and therefore efficiency and thrust rating.

IMHO, the Japanese XF-9 is a testbed to develop certain advanced technologies (high electrical power generation, composites etc) but I doubt if Japan would go solo for equipping its F-3 fighters with IHI engines. The better results XF program gives Japan, the better its position in negotiations with a foreign partner.

I'm sure Pratt and Whitney won't pick up IHI for a JV. They'd want to sell Japan an entire engine. Idk about GE, but I don't think GE is that interested.

But a Japan - UK JV is on the horizon and it does sound like it is going to materialize. Especially, as of recently UK and Japan went through the sale of ARM to Softbank.

My bet is on a IHI - Rolce Royce JV. This means that Tempest and F-3 would sport the same engines (or share a good deal of technology). Rolce Royce is also well established in mass producing and servicing engines so Japan would want such a partner rather than solely bet on IHI.

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I doubt the XF-9 will be used in the end in any plane. To me it proves that Japan is fully capable of going on their own to develop jet engines in the F-119 class, but because they are "forced" to buy the F-35s, because of their relationship with the US, it won't ever even be used in any plane.

Same with the UK, rolls-royce basically has no business from the UK airforce, because they've decided to buy the F-35, since it cost too much for the UK to develop their own fifth gen fighter. I doubt rolls-royce will partner with IHI on furthering the XF-9 or XF-10, there just isn't demand for such an engine, especially since both countries have chosen to go down the F-35 route.

free_6ix9ine said:

Same with the UK, rolls-royce basically has no business from the UK airforce, because they've decided to buy the F-35, since it cost too much for the UK to develop their own fifth gen fighter. I doubt rolls-royce will partner with IHI on furthering the XF-9 or XF-10, there just isn't demand for such an engine, especially since both countries have chosen to go down the F-35 route.

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The lift fan in the F-35B is RR-designed and if the GE/RR F136 alternative engine had not been canned, the RAF would presumably have fitted it to their F-35s, giving RR a handsome share in the UK fleet.

free_6ix9ine said:

Agreed. But regardless, I still an advanced civil gas turbine power generation industry will help China in the future, by providing access to foreign technology to shore up some of the current deficiencies such as MTBO. Power generation gas turbines and jet engines are a pretty mature industry, there is no need to start from scratch if we can leverage foreign technology.

A power generation gas turbine industry will also provide China with economy of scale for developing jet engines as well, same materials, same production processes, same talent pool, etc. There is alot of overlap in the two, so the cost of developing new engines will come down as well.

Also, we don/t know much about the WS-15 in terms of specs. But the Japanese have much more experience than China with gas turbines, so I wouldn't be surprised if the XF-9 has better performance than the WS-15 (besides max. thrust), such as MTBO, fuel efficiency, etc.

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I completely agree that Civilian gas turbine industry will enriched military aero turbine development But the problem is the structure on Chinese power industry 70% of the power generating station in China is powered by coal for the simple reason that coal is plentiful and cheap The become defacto primary source of energy

China does not have plenty of natural gas well and until recently the gas infrastructure is not that well developed They make concerted effort to change the mix of energy by importing huge amount of gas from central asia and now Russia. But it will take a while to develop the infrastructure like trunk pipe line, feeder line to the cities, port LNG gas re gasification, LNG bulk carrier etc

Without adequate gas source there will be no combines cycle power plant and the implication is no Gas Turbine industry
Japan is different their primary source of energy is GAs they import huge amount of gas from Qatar, Australia, Russia. And they have the infrastructure. that is why Mitsubishi has very developed Gas Turbine production.
China did has a highly developed generating power industry thing like boiler, steam turbine, heater etc They are up there with the best in the world and has been exporting GS all over the world

You cannot develop industry out of vacuum there must need before it developed

Tirdent said:

The lift fan in the F-35B is RR-designed and if the GE/RR F136 alternative engine had not been canned, the RAF would presumably have fitted it to their F-35s, giving RR a handsome share in the UK fleet.

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Exactly, its RR designed lift fan, but that's it. The lift fan is a smaller component than the entire engine. No pun intended, but RR got shafted when they cancelled the F136. But I guess the US would be too proud to accept a joint venture engine on their F-35's.

While China tries to catch up to the West in the coming decades over traditional engine technology, it should also be looking to develop other alternatives that could eventually replace it altogether. For instance,