Hyperwarp
Captain
145 kN is the max thrust value in afterburner for the Salut AL-31FM2 - .
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
145 kN is the max thrust value in afterburner for the Salut AL-31FM2 - .
I was talking about the WS-10 series. Dieno marked its thrust as ranging from 128 to 145 kN. This number is very interesting. We are not talking about AL-31 derivatives.If 145 kN is the max thrust, which of the WS-10 series would be the probable engine to achieve that? That was my question. I think it would be WS-10C ( equipped for J-20s with serrated nozzles).
Edit: This would be higher than the 137 kN thrust rating you pointed to earlier.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
My reasoning in saying 145kN is because the FM2 is rated there and for the Chinese to swap a 145kN FM2 for a WS-10 variant, that variant probably either has similar wet thrust to 145kN with greater dry thrust, (making the swap worthwhile) or might have even greater wet thrust than 145kN (making the swap worthwhile).
While AL-31 failures have caused J-10 crashes, I don't think they've caused any J-11 crashes. Their reliability, in my opinion, is far from poor enough for that reason to merit an engine swap for a double-engined fighter, much less if the newer engine has significantly reduced performance (such as 8kN less wet thrust per engine). The point is that introducing a second interim engine before the WS-15 is a good deal of work and there has to be something to justify that other than "let's use local even if it has less thrust."
I wanted someone to say that ! Waiting till more details emerge of the J-20s equipped with WS-10 series. Another is the sight of 4 WS-20s on a Y-20. Thank you for the helpful comments.
As I've said before, whatever its thrust rating is, the WS-10 has two non-trivial advantages over the AL-31F:
1) It makes the J-20 fully indigenous.
2) It has stealthy nozzles.
That could easily tip the scales in its favour even at no extra thrust and reliability (that thrust and reliability are now on par we know from the J-10 adopting it).
1) It makes the J-20 fully indigenous.
2) It has stealthy nozzles.
That could easily tip the scales in its favour even at no extra thrust and reliability (that thrust and reliability are now on par we know from the J-10 adopting it).
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
1) At a time when Sino-Russian relations are very good and with the upcoming final domestic engine for J-20, an indigenization effort like this that detracts manpower from other improvements to the J-20 doesn't make sense unless there is some performance gain. From what I know, the CFM civilian origins of the WS-10 give it a good bit higher dry thrust to wet thrust ratio than the AL-31 series. If this is true, and the WS-10 version in the J-20 has reached a competitive wet thrust with the 145kN AL-31FM2 that is most likely in the J-20, then chances are that the Taihang provides a substantial increase dry thrust, aiding supercruise. In my opinion, that would be make the effort more worth it than even some small increase in wet thrust. And to indigenize just to indigenize for no other benefits makes no sense to me at this point for the J-20 project.
2) Nozzles can be changed without swapping the engine for much smaller workload if there was no real reason to swap the engine.
1) As far as I know the WS-10 family has a BPR of about 0.8 as opposed to ~0.6 in the AL-31F, meaning its reheated to dry thrust ratio is unlikely to be lower. In other words, unless the version now fitted to the J-20 has significantly higher afterburning thrust than whatever AL-31F variant was originally installed, the WS-10 is probably not going to have more dry thrust. This is possible of course, but would only really be plausible if the old engine was a lower-thrust earlier AL-31FN.
2) Well, apparently not so trivial that it could be done for the initial series production batch with AL-31Fs, despite the obvious RCS drawback.
2) Well, apparently not so trivial that it could be done for the initial series production batch with AL-31Fs, despite the obvious RCS drawback.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
1) My information regarding the WS-10's dry/wet thrust ratio is not reliable at all. I cannot find any current standing data for the dry thrust but remember years back when the WS-10 was still at some 120kN, that someone had claimed the dry thrust was 89kN whereas the AL-31F produced 74.5kN dry thrust to 122.6kN wet thrust. Along with the civilian origins of the Taihang, it gave me the impression that it had higher dry to wet thrust ratio than the AL-31 series.
2) As I recall, early J-20 prototypes used AL-31X with a different silver nozzle. I don't see any difficulty in changing out nozzles or fashioning serrated nozzles to replace the standard ones; all the controls are still the same. It's not even like adding TVC. What would make it difficult?
What about the electricity generation that is required to support the EW,EOTS, Avionics, AESA radars etc? I do believe the WS-10 is an improvement over the AL-31X(whatever) engine was there in the first place. Reliability,Thrust, MTBO etc are certainly going to see varying levels of improvements ( not deterioration). It would be a fools errand to speculate what these improvements are, since nothing about these engines are reliable and official information.
There has been rumors,recently, that WS-15 is going to be integrated into the J-20 airframe. I suspect that there has been some sacrifices regarding the WS-15 series ( especially on the thrust front) since we do have some confirmations that the engine had failed during the 2015 tests. 4 years to fix all the problems and make changes to the mass production facilities! I'm impressed !
But as i said, I suspect that the maximum wet thrust has been lowered to somewhere around 160 to 170 kN figure. The engine would be able to give super-cruise capability along with improved IR stealth and power generation - is what i firmly believe ( Why else they'd put a WS-15 on the J-20? Did Xi dada get poked by the world leaders for not having a powerful engine for J-20? )
Also : WS-19 . Is there any updates on this special engine? The last i heard was a few months back, about this engine along with a photo of the Engine testbed with the Dev/Test team (of 624 Institute,as others pointed out ).
There has been rumors,recently, that WS-15 is going to be integrated into the J-20 airframe. I suspect that there has been some sacrifices regarding the WS-15 series ( especially on the thrust front) since we do have some confirmations that the engine had failed during the 2015 tests. 4 years to fix all the problems and make changes to the mass production facilities! I'm impressed !
But as i said, I suspect that the maximum wet thrust has been lowered to somewhere around 160 to 170 kN figure. The engine would be able to give super-cruise capability along with improved IR stealth and power generation - is what i firmly believe ( Why else they'd put a WS-15 on the J-20? Did Xi dada get poked by the world leaders for not having a powerful engine for J-20? )
Also : WS-19 . Is there any updates on this special engine? The last i heard was a few months back, about this engine along with a photo of the Engine testbed with the Dev/Test team (of 624 Institute,as others pointed out ).
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