Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
The WS-10 was developed by 606 Institute and is produced by 410 Factory. The WS-15 is also being developed by 606 and will be produced by 410 and possibly also 430.
The WS-13 was developed by 649 Institute and is produced by 460. The WS-13E was developed by 624 and is produced by 460. The WS-19 is being developed by 624.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
At a Ukrainian aircraft engine factory, China’s military finds a cash-hungry partner
May 20 at 5:32 PM
ZAPORIZHIA, Ukraine — The president of a top Ukrainian aerospace company says its new Chinese investors often ask the staff for “little conversations.”
They want to know about record-keeping and planning, the setup of production lines and the interplay between workshops.
“They’ll talk for three hours, and the next day, a totally different group of people will come,” said Vyacheslav Boguslayev, whose sprawling Soviet-era company, Motor Sich, is one of the most advanced military aircraft engine manufacturers in the world.
“They’ll ask all the same questions as yesterday, and this continues for a week,” he said.
Racing to upgrade its military, China has been turning to Ukraine. And Ukraine — with its economy scrambled by hostilities with Russia — has been willing to accept China’s embrace.
“If they ban us from working with China,” Boguslayev said, “then the first thing I’ll do is fire 10,000 people.”
Motor Sich, dubbed the “Czar of Engines” in the Chinese media, has what Beijing wants: It can supply warplane engines and the know-how to one day possibly make a Chinese-built version.
The Chinese, in turn, have what Motor Sich wants: reliable buyers.
The company lost its biggest market — supplying engines for military helicopters and other aircraft in Russia — after war broke out in eastern Ukraine in 2014. Now it sells mainly to China.
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“If someone comes with money, they’ll take it,” Andreas Umland, a Kiev-based political analyst, said of Ukraine. “They don’t have the luxury to think very strategically here many years ahead.”
At the time of the 2014 revolution, China already had an economic and defense-industry relationship with Ukraine. It bought an unfinished Soviet-era aircraft carrier from Ukraine in 1998 and ordered four huge military hovercraft in 2009. Western countries, by contrast, had little use for Ukraine’s Soviet-legacy defense production.
“One way or another, Ukraine will have to choose,” said one Western diplomat in Kiev who is examining Ukraine’s links with China and who wasn’t authorized to comment publicly. “They cannot eternally integrate with China while moving toward the West.”
The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry declined to comment for this article. Ukraine-China relations are a delicate issue, officials in Kiev said, given Ukraine’s desire for close ties with the United States on the one hand and China’s expanding partnership with Russia on the other. But Ukraine’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, who took office Monday, met with the Chinese ambassador in Kiev early this month and offered a vote of
“China’s experience and investments are important to Ukraine,” he said.
to house more than 100,000 workers. On the Black Sea, the country of Georgia is emerging as a for Chinese trade with Europe.
But Ukraine offers unique resources for China in helping fill knowledge gaps as Beijing looks to build a world-class military, Western diplomats and analysts say.
Motor Sich’s Boguslayev said the only engines his company is building for China are for aircraft that don’t carry weapons, such as the L-15 training jet. But Reuben Johnson, an American defense industry analyst based in Kiev, said a tighter relationship with Motor Sich could allow China to mass-produce its own fighter jets.
“The Chinese — for all of the resources they have poured into the endeavor — have not been able to develop reliable fighter-jet engines that are producible in large numbers and run for enough hours between overhauls to be practical,” Johnson said. “Acquiring the brainpower and the expertise of Motor Sich could allow them to jump over that very big hurdle.”
A Chinese firm, Beijing Skyrizon Aviation Industry Investment Co., tried to buy a controlling stake in Motor Sich in 2017. Ukrainian authorities froze the deal on national security grounds. But Boguslayev said that $100 million of Beijing Skyrizon’s promised $250 million did come through and that the Chinese company now owns a stake of at least 25 percent in Motor Sich.
A spokesman for Motor Sich said 35 percent of the company’s $450 million in sales last year went to China, making the country the company’s biggest destination for its aircraft engines. No sales went to Russia, the spokesman said. Six years ago, by contrast, one-third of the company’s $1.1 billion in total sales went to Russia.
Serhii Honcharov, head of a testing facility, talks about the work of his department at the Motor Sich factory. (Oksana Parafeniuk for The Washington Post)
“Russia is gone. So I have to be in China now,” Boguslayev said.
He said he hears frequently from Ukrainian government officials that the United States is unhappy with his dealings with China. His response: “Then how about the State Department gives us work?”
Asked for comment about Motor Sich, a State Department spokeswoman said the United States doesn’t “oppose China’s economic and technological development through legitimate means. However, we are concerned by actions China’s government has taken that are out of step with international norms.
“The United States encourages our partners to consider national security risks that may arise from foreign investment transactions,” the spokeswoman said.
In the southwestern Chinese city of Chongqing, Motor Sich and Beijing Skyrizon in 2017 agreed to jointly build a plant to service and manufacture aircraft engines. The Chinese partners offered to build a small town in which Ukrainian engineers would feel at home, Boguslayev said.
“They said, ‘Give us 1,000 people,’ ” Boguslayev recalled. “ ‘We’ll build a church for you here. We’ll build a kindergarten.’ ”
The plant has been partially built, Boguslayev said, but is not yet operational.
Beijing Skyrizon representatives continue to tour Motor Sich plants regularly, Boguslayev said, taking copious notes and interviewing workers.
China is interested in Ukrainian technology beyond Motor Sich, hiring Ukrainian engineers and bringing them to China, Western officials and Ukrainian defense industry specialists say.
“It’s not just outsourcing, but taking our specialists in both the missile sector and in aircraft-building,” said Sergii Bondarchuk, a former head of Ukrainian defense export company Ukrspecexport who now lives in London. “Ukraine is losing a generation of engineers in this way.”
A woman walks outside the Motor Sich factory in Zaporizhia. (Oksana Parafeniuk for The Washington Post)
Paul Sonne in Washington, Lyric Li in Beijing, Oksana Parafeniuk in Kiev and Natalia Abbakumova in Moscow contributed to this report.
May 20 at 5:32 PM
ZAPORIZHIA, Ukraine — The president of a top Ukrainian aerospace company says its new Chinese investors often ask the staff for “little conversations.”
They want to know about record-keeping and planning, the setup of production lines and the interplay between workshops.
“They’ll talk for three hours, and the next day, a totally different group of people will come,” said Vyacheslav Boguslayev, whose sprawling Soviet-era company, Motor Sich, is one of the most advanced military aircraft engine manufacturers in the world.
“They’ll ask all the same questions as yesterday, and this continues for a week,” he said.
Racing to upgrade its military, China has been turning to Ukraine. And Ukraine — with its economy scrambled by hostilities with Russia — has been willing to accept China’s embrace.
“If they ban us from working with China,” Boguslayev said, “then the first thing I’ll do is fire 10,000 people.”
Motor Sich, dubbed the “Czar of Engines” in the Chinese media, has what Beijing wants: It can supply warplane engines and the know-how to one day possibly make a Chinese-built version.
The Chinese, in turn, have what Motor Sich wants: reliable buyers.
The company lost its biggest market — supplying engines for military helicopters and other aircraft in Russia — after war broke out in eastern Ukraine in 2014. Now it sells mainly to China.
[]
]
“If someone comes with money, they’ll take it,” Andreas Umland, a Kiev-based political analyst, said of Ukraine. “They don’t have the luxury to think very strategically here many years ahead.”
At the time of the 2014 revolution, China already had an economic and defense-industry relationship with Ukraine. It bought an unfinished Soviet-era aircraft carrier from Ukraine in 1998 and ordered four huge military hovercraft in 2009. Western countries, by contrast, had little use for Ukraine’s Soviet-legacy defense production.
“One way or another, Ukraine will have to choose,” said one Western diplomat in Kiev who is examining Ukraine’s links with China and who wasn’t authorized to comment publicly. “They cannot eternally integrate with China while moving toward the West.”
The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry declined to comment for this article. Ukraine-China relations are a delicate issue, officials in Kiev said, given Ukraine’s desire for close ties with the United States on the one hand and China’s expanding partnership with Russia on the other. But Ukraine’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, who took office Monday, met with the Chinese ambassador in Kiev early this month and offered a vote of
“China’s experience and investments are important to Ukraine,” he said.
to house more than 100,000 workers. On the Black Sea, the country of Georgia is emerging as a for Chinese trade with Europe.
But Ukraine offers unique resources for China in helping fill knowledge gaps as Beijing looks to build a world-class military, Western diplomats and analysts say.
Motor Sich’s Boguslayev said the only engines his company is building for China are for aircraft that don’t carry weapons, such as the L-15 training jet. But Reuben Johnson, an American defense industry analyst based in Kiev, said a tighter relationship with Motor Sich could allow China to mass-produce its own fighter jets.
“The Chinese — for all of the resources they have poured into the endeavor — have not been able to develop reliable fighter-jet engines that are producible in large numbers and run for enough hours between overhauls to be practical,” Johnson said. “Acquiring the brainpower and the expertise of Motor Sich could allow them to jump over that very big hurdle.”
A Chinese firm, Beijing Skyrizon Aviation Industry Investment Co., tried to buy a controlling stake in Motor Sich in 2017. Ukrainian authorities froze the deal on national security grounds. But Boguslayev said that $100 million of Beijing Skyrizon’s promised $250 million did come through and that the Chinese company now owns a stake of at least 25 percent in Motor Sich.
A spokesman for Motor Sich said 35 percent of the company’s $450 million in sales last year went to China, making the country the company’s biggest destination for its aircraft engines. No sales went to Russia, the spokesman said. Six years ago, by contrast, one-third of the company’s $1.1 billion in total sales went to Russia.
Serhii Honcharov, head of a testing facility, talks about the work of his department at the Motor Sich factory. (Oksana Parafeniuk for The Washington Post)
“Russia is gone. So I have to be in China now,” Boguslayev said.
He said he hears frequently from Ukrainian government officials that the United States is unhappy with his dealings with China. His response: “Then how about the State Department gives us work?”
Asked for comment about Motor Sich, a State Department spokeswoman said the United States doesn’t “oppose China’s economic and technological development through legitimate means. However, we are concerned by actions China’s government has taken that are out of step with international norms.
“The United States encourages our partners to consider national security risks that may arise from foreign investment transactions,” the spokeswoman said.
In the southwestern Chinese city of Chongqing, Motor Sich and Beijing Skyrizon in 2017 agreed to jointly build a plant to service and manufacture aircraft engines. The Chinese partners offered to build a small town in which Ukrainian engineers would feel at home, Boguslayev said.
“They said, ‘Give us 1,000 people,’ ” Boguslayev recalled. “ ‘We’ll build a church for you here. We’ll build a kindergarten.’ ”
The plant has been partially built, Boguslayev said, but is not yet operational.
Beijing Skyrizon representatives continue to tour Motor Sich plants regularly, Boguslayev said, taking copious notes and interviewing workers.
China is interested in Ukrainian technology beyond Motor Sich, hiring Ukrainian engineers and bringing them to China, Western officials and Ukrainian defense industry specialists say.
“It’s not just outsourcing, but taking our specialists in both the missile sector and in aircraft-building,” said Sergii Bondarchuk, a former head of Ukrainian defense export company Ukrspecexport who now lives in London. “Ukraine is losing a generation of engineers in this way.”
A woman walks outside the Motor Sich factory in Zaporizhia. (Oksana Parafeniuk for The Washington Post)
Paul Sonne in Washington, Lyric Li in Beijing, Oksana Parafeniuk in Kiev and Natalia Abbakumova in Moscow contributed to this report.
I just realized that after 2-3 years, we have not seen much progress on China's engines other than WS-10 series. There has been little or no news with regard to WS-20 or other engines for transport aircraft. Nor have we heard any progress on engines for airliners.
I thought engine developments were to be recorded over the timeframe of decades rather than years. I would have my most genuine doubts about an engine's capability IF it was purported to be a product of 2 or 3 years of development.
I toe your emotions though. I'd like to see some news (flying testbed photos and such) about WS-15 and WS-20. The lack of news doesn't mean nothing is brewing. Since it is the Chinese forces we are on about.
I sure hope they might be preparing maintenance and technical documents and such. Development is only one piece of the puzzle.
The timescale for the development of an engine is more like 5 years. It can sometimes be as long as 10 years.
Given those horizons 2-3 years is too short of a timescale to produce an engine from scratch.
Other than the WS-10 we have had rumors of the WS-18 (D-30 clone) and WS-19 (FC-31 5th generation engine).
The WS-18 is supposedly in production. The WS-19 has supposedly reached at least prototype status.
There are supposedly a least three competing engine designs for the Y-20 with various degrees of technical sophistication.
This is a tremendous design effort. Results will happen sooner or later.
It seems China now finally dominates 4th generation (i.e. F-16/F-15) combat engine design with projects like the WS-10, WS-13, WS-18 attaining production status. The WS-19 is indicative that at least some 5th generation technologies have also been dominated.
Given those horizons 2-3 years is too short of a timescale to produce an engine from scratch.
Other than the WS-10 we have had rumors of the WS-18 (D-30 clone) and WS-19 (FC-31 5th generation engine).
The WS-18 is supposedly in production. The WS-19 has supposedly reached at least prototype status.
There are supposedly a least three competing engine designs for the Y-20 with various degrees of technical sophistication.
This is a tremendous design effort. Results will happen sooner or later.
It seems China now finally dominates 4th generation (i.e. F-16/F-15) combat engine design with projects like the WS-10, WS-13, WS-18 attaining production status. The WS-19 is indicative that at least some 5th generation technologies have also been dominated.
We've had claims about Rhenium blades in recent years. The WS-15, in general, seems to be delayed.
Certainly, the Single Crystal technology being used need to be 4th generation or better. I don't know how the Chinese have achieved SCB(gen 4 and up), but i'm fairly certain that acquisition of a steady supply of rare earths isn't going to be a huge concern ( I think that is the first problem faced by many countries who'd want an advanced engine).
The thrust figures for the engine are 180 kN ...which in itself is too cutting edge. Many things like the high temperatures, creep, load endured etc make it so. Has China leapfrogged P&W and GE , who has years of experience and well established supply chain in the field?
Why would China engage in producing the J-20 IF it never had confident military advisors pushing for it , knowing well the maturity or progress of its Engine Blade Technology then (atleast by 2010). I honestly wonder about that often.Certainly, China might have had a breakthrough that evaded GE or P&W. A breakthrough achieved by a certain percentage of magic rare earths?