szbd
Junior Member
Man, I love J20 and I believe it can beat F22 with engines of same level. But your statement is over optimistic I think.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
According to the Liyang employee, the WS-10 initial variant (12.5 tonne thrust) received recently, attaining development-termination status; that is, no more improvements can realistically be made on its design. Future production of that variant will be done according to the now-finalised specs and no modifications will need to be done to it thereafter. This entails the WS-10 variant that first flew in the early-2000s has now reached technological readiness level 9.
He knew this because Liming consulted with Liyang's experts on production certification. This is due to Liming's last production certification's being granted over forty years ago so that cohort has since retired, meaning the current Liming cohort has no experience with production certification. This contrasts to Liyang, which had concluded production certification in 2015 for the JL-9's engine so they have plenty of experience with production certification.
In answering further questions, he divulged additional info:
From another thread about the AL-222-25 copy, there were these tidbits:
A few miscellaneous points from other threads that weren't as juicy:
He knew this because Liming consulted with Liyang's experts on production certification. This is due to Liming's last production certification's being granted over forty years ago so that cohort has since retired, meaning the current Liming cohort has no experience with production certification. This contrasts to Liyang, which had concluded production certification in 2015 for the JL-9's engine so they have plenty of experience with production certification.
In answering further questions, he divulged additional info:
- J-10 family will not transition to this production-certified variant because of its higher bypass ratio compared to the AL-31 family which entails its having less consistent power output during flight at high altitudes or during vigorous manoeuvres. The J-10 series is increasing the electronics content of every successive iteration from the J-10 to 10A to 10B to 10C, so it's imperative that the engine does suffer unpredictable drops in power output as the electronics cannot function without a consistent power supply. The WS-10B, on the other hand, does have decent prospects of future wide-scale adoption on the J-10 series. The Sino-Flanker series can mount the production-certified WS-10 just fine because of their twin-engine design which means both engines supply power to the electronics basically guaranteeing that, even if the WS-10s suffer power output drops during high-G manoeuvres, there would still be enough power from the two engines for the electronics.
- The 2004 J-10 mounted with a WS-10A never reached design certification before being cancelled. However, valuable lessons were learnt from that experience.
- The WS-10B has received or is in the process of receiving design certification.
- The WS-15's nozzles are short and stubby, and comes with serrated edges. It'll be pretty obvious when a J-20 mounts them.
From another thread about the AL-222-25 copy, there were these tidbits:
- The Minshan project was a technology demonstration project from the very start. Only 3-5 examples were made and underwent testing.
- One such example, when undergoing testing, had its turbine disk shatter which flung out debris in all directions, puncturing the casing and severing hydraulic tubes. This resulted in a fire which got put out by the automatic fire extinguisher. The example thus met its end like so.
- Chongqing Tianjiao Aerospace Propulsion Corporation, in cooperation with Ukraine's Motor Sich, competed with 624th Institute's AL-222-25 copy using the OG design. They ended up winning due to Motor Sich's willingness to contribute all its prior knowledge of the AL-222-25 series to the joint venture with Tianjiao as well as a prevailing expectation among industry and the PLAAF towards 624th that it should be conducting next-gen R&D - as it has the more talented aviation powerplant researchers - instead of spending their time reverse-engineering a low-thrust previous-gen design.
A few miscellaneous points from other threads that weren't as juicy:
- The WS-13E is intended for use on the FC-31 in lieu of a 4th-gen medium-thrust engine. The original WS-13 (RD-33) is already sufficient for use on the FC-31 but 624th wanted a practice project before beginning a full-scale next-gen medium-thrust project, so they went ahead with the WS-13E.
- The WS-13E has ~9 tonnes of thrust, with a TWR slightly lower than 8.
- It is at a similar level of readiness as the WS-10B; so almost received or have already received design certification.
- The WS-12 is the non-afterburning version of WS-13.
- 624th currently has two projects under its wings; the WS-500 500kg-thrust engine and the WS-13E. After completing development of these two, which is close, they will be progressing onto the next-gen medium-thrust engine (WS-19?), whose target thrust is slightly higher than the EJ200's.
- 青城 is project codeword for the WS-500, 黄龙 is the turbojet version of WS-500.
- The WZ-10 turboshaft has been flight-tested and initial deliveries are to begin this year for further evaluation. Looking forward to seeing this on the Z-20.
- The naval WS-10 is simply the WS-10 with additional anti-corrosion treatment.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Excellent news thanks. Interesting a logical explanation why we didn't see WS10 on J10 but guarded optimist that the successor WS10B might show up in J10 Here is the background of 624 Institute in Mianyang
Reading thru it they might need backup of fundamental science of material
Mianyang in Sichuan is the hub of Chinese Aerospace It was created in 60's to ward off invasion by Soviet by moving strategic plant, institute to the mountainous western China far a way from coast and Soviet Union. Here is the list of all China institute
624 Institute
Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE)
China Gas Turbine Establishment
Gas Turbine Institute
Sichuan Gas Turbine Institute
Center of Light Gas Turbine
Two institutions in China, the Shenyang Aero-Engine Research Institute (the 606 Institute), and the China Gas Turbine Establishment (the 624 Institute), have led R&D efforts on a wide range of turbofans developed over the past two decades for combat aircraft, flight training aircraft, as well as UAVs and cruise missiles. The WS-10 engine project officially commenced in 1987 at the 624 Institute of the Ministry of Aviation Industry, also known at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).
Based on the related disciplines, the Center of Gas Turbine carries out research of scientific issues related to the design of the overall performance of gas turbines, and design and matching of various components and integrated systems. The goal is to provide the scientific basis and new technological channels to the research and development of light power systems in China with completely independent intellectual property right, and to become a domestic important and international well-known key base for basic theories and high-tech research and development and for training talented people in the field of light power systems. At the Center there is a research and development team long engaged in light power systems.
At the Center there are research testing platforms covering series of parts and integrated light power systems. The Center has independently set up a design system for light gas turbines with self-owned intellectual property right and acquired software for the analyses and calculationsof performances of series of parts and integrated systems. With the support of key 863 projects of the Ministry of Science and Technology and aviation enterprisesthe Center has committed and participated in a number of R&D tasks of key technologies in light gas turbines. The Center broadly participatesin national cooperation, built a cooperative R&D platform for auxiliary power for aircraft with the China Aviation Industry Group, builta joint laboratory for key technologies in aero-engines, and jointly committed a number of state-level research tasks with other institutions.
An advanced engine development facility will be built in Sichuan province as China moves closer to building its own jumbo jet. The base in Mianyang will provide advanced testing facilities and simulate the height and speed of an aircraft at high altitude. The country's current altitude simulation testing facility - the largest in Asia - is located at the gas turbine institute in Jiangyou, Sichuan province. But plans to build large aircraft have placed tough demands on the facility, and the existing infrastructure is not of a high enough standard.
Mianyang is located in the northwest of Sichuan, 98 kilometers from Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province. Its administrative divisions includes the two districts of Fucheng and Youxian, the New and High-Tech Industries Development Zone, the six counties of Santai, Anxian, Zitong, Yanting, Pinwu and Beichuan, Jiangyou city, and the Science Zone Administration Office of the provincial government. It covers an area of 20000 square km with a population of 5.18 million, among which 50 square km and 500 thousand people are in the urban area. The place enjoys a subtropical, humid and temperate climate, with annual average temperature 14.7-17.3°, the lowest temperature 4-5°, the highest temperature 32-34°, annual average relative humidity 71%.
Since the setting up of Mianyang Municipal Government in 1985, GDP has increased by an average of 10.8% per year, and the Industrial Added Value has increased by an average of 14.9%. GDP in 2001 reached RMB 32.98 billion yuan. It is thus the second most important city in Sichuan, one of the fastest developing cities in Western China, and has a very favorable development potential.
Mianyang is a very important state defense military industrial and research base with 18 state defense research institutes, such as China Academy of Engineering Physics, Chinese Aerodynamics Research & Development Center, Chinese Gas Turbine Institute, etc. There are six universities and technical schools, two national technical centers (Changhong and Jiuzhou), six provincial technical centers (eg. Shuangma and Dongchai). In the various fields of nuclear technology and its application, aerodynamics, aeronautic engines, magnetic materials and industrial automation, Mianyang leads in China and / or the world.
In Mianyang, there are about 50 big and middle scale key enterprises such as Changhong, Jiuzhou, Changgang, Shuangma, Huachen, Huarun, Shuanghui, Fuling, Fenggu, Taiji Group and so on. Electronics, mechanical engineering, metallurgy, construction materials, chemical industry, etc., make up the key industries. Mianyang has already been developed to be the largest IT products producer in Western China.
Mianyang has about 2200 years of history with official local government. It is the birthplace of the Emperor Dayu, Leizhu the mother of silk, and Li Bai the great poet of Tang Dynasty. It is also named as the "Giant Panda Country". To the north is the Jianmen Castle, to the south ChengDu Plain, to the west Jiuzhai Huanglong, and to the east Bayu and Three gorges, so it is known as the hub or "the throat and key" of Sichuan through its history. The eco-tourism routes include Wanglang Natural Protection Zone, Qianfu Mountain, Yuanwang Cave, etc. Fule Mountain and Zitong Damiao contain important remains for tourists interested in the "Three Kingdoms". There are also industrial and scientific sites for interested tourists, such as CAEP Exhibition Center, Asia's largest aerodynamics center, Changhong Commercial Center. It is becoming the top tourism center of Sichuan and West China. The famous Yuewang Lou (tower) is one of the four most famous towers in China.
Reading thru it they might need backup of fundamental science of material
Mianyang in Sichuan is the hub of Chinese Aerospace It was created in 60's to ward off invasion by Soviet by moving strategic plant, institute to the mountainous western China far a way from coast and Soviet Union. Here is the list of all China institute
624 Institute
Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE)
China Gas Turbine Establishment
Gas Turbine Institute
Sichuan Gas Turbine Institute
Center of Light Gas Turbine
Two institutions in China, the Shenyang Aero-Engine Research Institute (the 606 Institute), and the China Gas Turbine Establishment (the 624 Institute), have led R&D efforts on a wide range of turbofans developed over the past two decades for combat aircraft, flight training aircraft, as well as UAVs and cruise missiles. The WS-10 engine project officially commenced in 1987 at the 624 Institute of the Ministry of Aviation Industry, also known at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).
Based on the related disciplines, the Center of Gas Turbine carries out research of scientific issues related to the design of the overall performance of gas turbines, and design and matching of various components and integrated systems. The goal is to provide the scientific basis and new technological channels to the research and development of light power systems in China with completely independent intellectual property right, and to become a domestic important and international well-known key base for basic theories and high-tech research and development and for training talented people in the field of light power systems. At the Center there is a research and development team long engaged in light power systems.
At the Center there are research testing platforms covering series of parts and integrated light power systems. The Center has independently set up a design system for light gas turbines with self-owned intellectual property right and acquired software for the analyses and calculationsof performances of series of parts and integrated systems. With the support of key 863 projects of the Ministry of Science and Technology and aviation enterprisesthe Center has committed and participated in a number of R&D tasks of key technologies in light gas turbines. The Center broadly participatesin national cooperation, built a cooperative R&D platform for auxiliary power for aircraft with the China Aviation Industry Group, builta joint laboratory for key technologies in aero-engines, and jointly committed a number of state-level research tasks with other institutions.
An advanced engine development facility will be built in Sichuan province as China moves closer to building its own jumbo jet. The base in Mianyang will provide advanced testing facilities and simulate the height and speed of an aircraft at high altitude. The country's current altitude simulation testing facility - the largest in Asia - is located at the gas turbine institute in Jiangyou, Sichuan province. But plans to build large aircraft have placed tough demands on the facility, and the existing infrastructure is not of a high enough standard.
Mianyang is located in the northwest of Sichuan, 98 kilometers from Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province. Its administrative divisions includes the two districts of Fucheng and Youxian, the New and High-Tech Industries Development Zone, the six counties of Santai, Anxian, Zitong, Yanting, Pinwu and Beichuan, Jiangyou city, and the Science Zone Administration Office of the provincial government. It covers an area of 20000 square km with a population of 5.18 million, among which 50 square km and 500 thousand people are in the urban area. The place enjoys a subtropical, humid and temperate climate, with annual average temperature 14.7-17.3°, the lowest temperature 4-5°, the highest temperature 32-34°, annual average relative humidity 71%.
Since the setting up of Mianyang Municipal Government in 1985, GDP has increased by an average of 10.8% per year, and the Industrial Added Value has increased by an average of 14.9%. GDP in 2001 reached RMB 32.98 billion yuan. It is thus the second most important city in Sichuan, one of the fastest developing cities in Western China, and has a very favorable development potential.
Mianyang is a very important state defense military industrial and research base with 18 state defense research institutes, such as China Academy of Engineering Physics, Chinese Aerodynamics Research & Development Center, Chinese Gas Turbine Institute, etc. There are six universities and technical schools, two national technical centers (Changhong and Jiuzhou), six provincial technical centers (eg. Shuangma and Dongchai). In the various fields of nuclear technology and its application, aerodynamics, aeronautic engines, magnetic materials and industrial automation, Mianyang leads in China and / or the world.
In Mianyang, there are about 50 big and middle scale key enterprises such as Changhong, Jiuzhou, Changgang, Shuangma, Huachen, Huarun, Shuanghui, Fuling, Fenggu, Taiji Group and so on. Electronics, mechanical engineering, metallurgy, construction materials, chemical industry, etc., make up the key industries. Mianyang has already been developed to be the largest IT products producer in Western China.
Mianyang has about 2200 years of history with official local government. It is the birthplace of the Emperor Dayu, Leizhu the mother of silk, and Li Bai the great poet of Tang Dynasty. It is also named as the "Giant Panda Country". To the north is the Jianmen Castle, to the south ChengDu Plain, to the west Jiuzhai Huanglong, and to the east Bayu and Three gorges, so it is known as the hub or "the throat and key" of Sichuan through its history. The eco-tourism routes include Wanglang Natural Protection Zone, Qianfu Mountain, Yuanwang Cave, etc. Fule Mountain and Zitong Damiao contain important remains for tourists interested in the "Three Kingdoms". There are also industrial and scientific sites for interested tourists, such as CAEP Exhibition Center, Asia's largest aerodynamics center, Changhong Commercial Center. It is becoming the top tourism center of Sichuan and West China. The famous Yuewang Lou (tower) is one of the four most famous towers in China.
timepass
Brigadier
>> WS13 / RD-33 / RD-93 Engines Details . . .
The WS13 is a Chinese modified version of the Russian RD-33 engine. The engine for the JF-17/FC-1 was initially the Russian RD-93, but it is intended that the WS13 will eventually be used. In 2005 China signed a $267 million contract with Russia for 100 RD-93 turbofan engines, a variant of the RD-33, to power the Joint Fighter JF-17/FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter aircraft, with options for another 400 engines. Engine deliveries from Klimov and Chernyshev were to begin in 2006. The RD-93 engines is a variant of the RD-33 engine developed to power the MiG-29 fighter jet.
The RD-93 was developed by Russia's Klimov design bureau specifically for the JF-17/FC-1. Pakistan has announced that it could procure 150-300 JF-17 aircraft to meet the tactical and strategic needs of its Air Force. Russia, whose military cooperation with India had been bogged down by a number of sensitive issues, such as a delay in the overhaul of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier and a price escalation with the Su-30 MKI contract, informed China in 2006 that re-exporting RD-93 engines was not allowed without Moscow's permission.
Beijing went ahead and delivered two RD-93 equipped JF-17 fighters to Pakistan in March 2007 prompting India to protest the deal as a violation of the end-user agreement between Russia and China. India, concerned over Islamabad's growing military potential, has asked Russia, its close ally, to "freeze" the deal. In August 2007 Russia blocked China from re-exporting Russian RD-93 engines for Chinese-made fighters to Pakistan.
In late December 2009, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed a contract with China to deliver 43 RD-93 engines. China would receive the engines by the end of 2009. The first 25 engines had been manufactured at the Chernyshev mechanical engineering enterprise in Moscow. The December contract was worth $160 million. The contract completed the framework agreement signed in 2006 to deliver 100 RD-93 engines to China. Russia had already supplied 57 such engines.
Russian aircraft makers MiG and Sukhoi spoke against the sale of RD-93 jet engines to China, citing the threat of strong competition from cheaper Chinese FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the famed MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft. Russian aircraft industry source say the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about $10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about $35 mln. By mid-2010 MiG-29s were competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters. In addition, Egypt had launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.
By November 2010 Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport was preparing a contract for the delivery of additional RD-93 jet engines to China. "We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation [CATIC] on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai. "We hope that this contract will be signed," Mikheyev added.
The WS13 engine is 4.14 meters long, 1.02 meters in diameter, weighing 1,135 kg. The engine will have a major repair interval of roughly 810 hrs, service life span 2200 hrs, both far exceed the RD-33 engine. Most western jets have easily double the amount of time interval between overhauls and double the engine life when compared to Chinese and/or Russian engines. The difference lies in material sciences. The alloys and materials used can double the life of the engine thus greatly reducing service costs.
The engine uses a three-string wide solid titanium axial core. The former fans are computer-controlled variable steering guide vanes. The 8-stage axial pressure compressor (for the former three adjustable guide vane) used hollow-cooled single-stage low-pressure turbine rotor blade. The single crystal turbine blades for the high-pressure turbine blade and a guide, annular combustor. a tip clearance control air heat exchanger and integrated digital control system for the whole.
The Klimov RD-33 was developed to power the Mig-29 multi-role fighter. Most of the RD-33 parts are used in the WS-13, some only slightly modified, is a small part of the new development. The introduction of improved production technology equipment is the WP13 most significant gain over the RD-33. Russia is responsible for the training of technical staff and some workers, a number of workers have the training equipment shipped back together, installation and testing of production, and other reasonable arrangements for the various components of production.
Initially, the FC-1/JF-17 project was looking for a new engine instead of the unreliable Russian RD93. So the institute in charge of TianShan21 decided to cooperate with CAC and develop a new engine on the basis of the abandoned Tianshan 21 core engine. The core engine of the WS13 is the core engine of the project "Tianshan 21", one of the competitors for the next Chinese engine after the WS10A. Its T/W ratio is set to 10, while that of AL37 and WS10 is less than 8. By some accounts the TianShan 21 project was given up by the PLA after its core engine was rolled out, because some more attractive projects were available.
ENGINES:
Chinese Russian Percentage
WS13 RD-93 Difference
Length (m): 4.15 4.25 -2.35%
Diameter (m): 1.02 1.04 -1.92%
Weight (kg): 1135 1055 +7.58%
Thrust (afterburning, kN): 86.37 81.3 +6.24%
Thrust (dry, kN): 56.75 50 +13.50%
Bypass ratio: 0.57 0.49 +16.33%
Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]
Recent Chinese turbofan engines have been named after famous mountains in China. The WS13 is named after Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]. There are four principal mountain ranges in China, viz.: The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains], Himalaya, Nan Shan and Soyoti, all of which have peaks extending above the snow line; besides numerous mountain ridges, which are below the snow line. The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains] and Altai mountain systems approach each other to within a hundred miles, the intervening space being occupied by high steppe, which forms the first rise from the Dzungarian lowlands to the Mongolian plateau. This eastern extension of the Tian Shan chain, which approaches so closely to the Altai Range and which extends far into Mongolia before disappearing in the Gobi Desert, is composed of the ranges called the Bogdo-ola, Barkul, and Karlik Tagh, and, still farther east, the Ati Bogdo. It is somewhere among these mountains that the true dividing-line exists between the two subdivisions.
The Tien-shan is in its mean direction parallel to the equator. It serpentines between the 41st and 43rd degrees of latitude. It extends from Ming-bulak (or the thousand sources) of the western Buruts to the Chinese city of Kuku-khote (about 200 miles west of the great ocean); about eight times the length of the chain of the Pyrenees. Westward of the cross-range of the Bolor, the Tien-shan extends as far as the meridian of Samarkand-the mountains of Asferah, celebrated in the memoirs of Baber. The denomination Tien-shan is strictly applicable only to the portion of the range intercepted between the meridian of the Bolor and the great swelling of the Gobi east of Hami and Barkul. Between lake Chagan and the western extremity of the In-shan (which, although two degrees farther south, is the continuation of the Tien-shan in China proper) the elevation of this range is less obvious, owing to the height of the table-land through which it rises.
>> PRODUCT QUALITY
• Engineering excellence
The engine features a modular design, which means that individual parts, units and modules can be repaired or replaced in the field.
• Reliability
The RD-33’s excellent gas flow stability against ambient disturbances, including the firing of onboard weapons, dramatically facilitates control of the aircraft. These engines also offer a high rate of thrust increase and, therefore, aircraft acceleration, which is especially critical for today’s jet fighters.
• Universal platform
The RD-33 engine family includes the following versions:
• RD-33 series: Series 3, an engine with a longer service life;
• RD-33B/NB, an engine without the afterburner for various types of aircraft;
• SMR-95, an engine for upgrading foreign 2nd and 3rd generation jet fighters;
• RD-93, a version for the JF-17/FC-1 airplane;.
• RD-33MK (Sea Wasp), an improved version of RD-33 for new MiG-35 jet fighters and MiG29K ship-borne fighters.
An RD-33 version with a thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) is also available. New engines of the RD-33 family include BARK digital monitoring and control systems. Repair and maintenance of RD-33 engines take advantage of an information and diagnostics system (IDS).
FACTS
• The most mass-produced jet engine in its class
• Adopted by the military in 25 countries as a component of MiG-29 fighters
• Employed to power the unique super-maneuverable MiG-29OVT fighter
• Installed of various models of the MiG-29 fighter family
• Developed in 1985
• Thrust class - 8000-9000 kgf
The WS13 is a Chinese modified version of the Russian RD-33 engine. The engine for the JF-17/FC-1 was initially the Russian RD-93, but it is intended that the WS13 will eventually be used. In 2005 China signed a $267 million contract with Russia for 100 RD-93 turbofan engines, a variant of the RD-33, to power the Joint Fighter JF-17/FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter aircraft, with options for another 400 engines. Engine deliveries from Klimov and Chernyshev were to begin in 2006. The RD-93 engines is a variant of the RD-33 engine developed to power the MiG-29 fighter jet.
The RD-93 was developed by Russia's Klimov design bureau specifically for the JF-17/FC-1. Pakistan has announced that it could procure 150-300 JF-17 aircraft to meet the tactical and strategic needs of its Air Force. Russia, whose military cooperation with India had been bogged down by a number of sensitive issues, such as a delay in the overhaul of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier and a price escalation with the Su-30 MKI contract, informed China in 2006 that re-exporting RD-93 engines was not allowed without Moscow's permission.
Beijing went ahead and delivered two RD-93 equipped JF-17 fighters to Pakistan in March 2007 prompting India to protest the deal as a violation of the end-user agreement between Russia and China. India, concerned over Islamabad's growing military potential, has asked Russia, its close ally, to "freeze" the deal. In August 2007 Russia blocked China from re-exporting Russian RD-93 engines for Chinese-made fighters to Pakistan.
In late December 2009, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed a contract with China to deliver 43 RD-93 engines. China would receive the engines by the end of 2009. The first 25 engines had been manufactured at the Chernyshev mechanical engineering enterprise in Moscow. The December contract was worth $160 million. The contract completed the framework agreement signed in 2006 to deliver 100 RD-93 engines to China. Russia had already supplied 57 such engines.
Russian aircraft makers MiG and Sukhoi spoke against the sale of RD-93 jet engines to China, citing the threat of strong competition from cheaper Chinese FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the famed MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft. Russian aircraft industry source say the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about $10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about $35 mln. By mid-2010 MiG-29s were competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters. In addition, Egypt had launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.
By November 2010 Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport was preparing a contract for the delivery of additional RD-93 jet engines to China. "We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation [CATIC] on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai. "We hope that this contract will be signed," Mikheyev added.
The WS13 engine is 4.14 meters long, 1.02 meters in diameter, weighing 1,135 kg. The engine will have a major repair interval of roughly 810 hrs, service life span 2200 hrs, both far exceed the RD-33 engine. Most western jets have easily double the amount of time interval between overhauls and double the engine life when compared to Chinese and/or Russian engines. The difference lies in material sciences. The alloys and materials used can double the life of the engine thus greatly reducing service costs.
The engine uses a three-string wide solid titanium axial core. The former fans are computer-controlled variable steering guide vanes. The 8-stage axial pressure compressor (for the former three adjustable guide vane) used hollow-cooled single-stage low-pressure turbine rotor blade. The single crystal turbine blades for the high-pressure turbine blade and a guide, annular combustor. a tip clearance control air heat exchanger and integrated digital control system for the whole.
The Klimov RD-33 was developed to power the Mig-29 multi-role fighter. Most of the RD-33 parts are used in the WS-13, some only slightly modified, is a small part of the new development. The introduction of improved production technology equipment is the WP13 most significant gain over the RD-33. Russia is responsible for the training of technical staff and some workers, a number of workers have the training equipment shipped back together, installation and testing of production, and other reasonable arrangements for the various components of production.
Initially, the FC-1/JF-17 project was looking for a new engine instead of the unreliable Russian RD93. So the institute in charge of TianShan21 decided to cooperate with CAC and develop a new engine on the basis of the abandoned Tianshan 21 core engine. The core engine of the WS13 is the core engine of the project "Tianshan 21", one of the competitors for the next Chinese engine after the WS10A. Its T/W ratio is set to 10, while that of AL37 and WS10 is less than 8. By some accounts the TianShan 21 project was given up by the PLA after its core engine was rolled out, because some more attractive projects were available.
ENGINES:
Chinese Russian Percentage
WS13 RD-93 Difference
Length (m): 4.15 4.25 -2.35%
Diameter (m): 1.02 1.04 -1.92%
Weight (kg): 1135 1055 +7.58%
Thrust (afterburning, kN): 86.37 81.3 +6.24%
Thrust (dry, kN): 56.75 50 +13.50%
Bypass ratio: 0.57 0.49 +16.33%
Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]
Recent Chinese turbofan engines have been named after famous mountains in China. The WS13 is named after Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]. There are four principal mountain ranges in China, viz.: The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains], Himalaya, Nan Shan and Soyoti, all of which have peaks extending above the snow line; besides numerous mountain ridges, which are below the snow line. The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains] and Altai mountain systems approach each other to within a hundred miles, the intervening space being occupied by high steppe, which forms the first rise from the Dzungarian lowlands to the Mongolian plateau. This eastern extension of the Tian Shan chain, which approaches so closely to the Altai Range and which extends far into Mongolia before disappearing in the Gobi Desert, is composed of the ranges called the Bogdo-ola, Barkul, and Karlik Tagh, and, still farther east, the Ati Bogdo. It is somewhere among these mountains that the true dividing-line exists between the two subdivisions.
The Tien-shan is in its mean direction parallel to the equator. It serpentines between the 41st and 43rd degrees of latitude. It extends from Ming-bulak (or the thousand sources) of the western Buruts to the Chinese city of Kuku-khote (about 200 miles west of the great ocean); about eight times the length of the chain of the Pyrenees. Westward of the cross-range of the Bolor, the Tien-shan extends as far as the meridian of Samarkand-the mountains of Asferah, celebrated in the memoirs of Baber. The denomination Tien-shan is strictly applicable only to the portion of the range intercepted between the meridian of the Bolor and the great swelling of the Gobi east of Hami and Barkul. Between lake Chagan and the western extremity of the In-shan (which, although two degrees farther south, is the continuation of the Tien-shan in China proper) the elevation of this range is less obvious, owing to the height of the table-land through which it rises.
>> PRODUCT QUALITY
• Engineering excellence
The engine features a modular design, which means that individual parts, units and modules can be repaired or replaced in the field.
• Reliability
The RD-33’s excellent gas flow stability against ambient disturbances, including the firing of onboard weapons, dramatically facilitates control of the aircraft. These engines also offer a high rate of thrust increase and, therefore, aircraft acceleration, which is especially critical for today’s jet fighters.
• Universal platform
The RD-33 engine family includes the following versions:
• RD-33 series: Series 3, an engine with a longer service life;
• RD-33B/NB, an engine without the afterburner for various types of aircraft;
• SMR-95, an engine for upgrading foreign 2nd and 3rd generation jet fighters;
• RD-93, a version for the JF-17/FC-1 airplane;.
• RD-33MK (Sea Wasp), an improved version of RD-33 for new MiG-35 jet fighters and MiG29K ship-borne fighters.
An RD-33 version with a thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) is also available. New engines of the RD-33 family include BARK digital monitoring and control systems. Repair and maintenance of RD-33 engines take advantage of an information and diagnostics system (IDS).
FACTS
• The most mass-produced jet engine in its class
• Adopted by the military in 25 countries as a component of MiG-29 fighters
• Employed to power the unique super-maneuverable MiG-29OVT fighter
• Installed of various models of the MiG-29 fighter family
• Developed in 1985
• Thrust class - 8000-9000 kgf
The choking problem with WS-10 was holding back Pakistan order of J-10A. Though it badly needs these medium weight fighters, Pakistan do not want to commit to yet another Russian engine due to Inida factor for its primary fighter, so AL-31 based J-10A is no go. Also it is known that AL-31 has similar choking problem, a number of J-10 accidents is due to this engine issue. For double engines fighter it is OK but for single engine fighter, it is a major obstacle. If China has sorted out these issues with WS-10B, then some variants of J-10 in Pakistan will happen soon.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
How true is this?
Motor Sich is moving to Chongqing China now,
estimated that there will be more than 2000 Ukrain experts working in Chongqing in the near futrue
According to Ukraine embassy in Beijing on June 6, 2017 website news, June 2, Ukraine's ambassador to China, Mr JiaoMing visit to chongqing, and chongqing leadership talks and visited chongqing tianjiao aviation industry base base (chongqing).JiaoMing ambassador said in talks with the chongqing leadership, the government of Ukraine for aviation engine project attaches great importance to bilateral cooperation, hope to continue to support in chongqing, make tianjiao project model of bilateral cooperation.Ukraine's state news agency and Ukraine other domestic media also reported the event.
chongqing aero engine base was established in 2015, Ukraine embassy official took part in foundation ceremony , this is the ambassador Jiao Ming second time visit , the ambassador came here again and was shocked by the sight.
Mr. JiaoMing praised engine base construction progress, said the construction progress beyond his imagination, such simply unthinkable in Ukraine.
On June 20th and 21st, the department of consular affairs deputy Liu Xu and chongqing vice mayor gui-ping liu met with Ukrainian officials related affairs.
Both sides negotiate a visa in China, the Ukrainian lengthen visa and consular protection problem, especially in chongqing.
chongqing base:
on zhuhai Air show, the joint company displayed several kind of aero engine:
other :
（科技日报北京6月1日电）
The article released some information never heard before;
Bilateral joint development of large wide-body passenger aircraft engine!
On May 31, in an interview with science and technology daily, Beijing tianjiao aviation industry investment co., LTD., innovation, vice President of the institute, the national "one thousand project" expert Wang Guangqiu.Of a new generation of aviation engine AI - 38 (China tianjiao airlines with Ukraine motor sich company based on D - 18 t engine).
CJ - 2000 and AI-38 thrust at about 30-34 tons.And AI - 38 derived type belongs to the new big bypass ratio engine, the prototype D - 18 t is famous for serving Ann - 225 and Ann - 124 two type conveyer for 22 years of "heart". AI-38 has three rotor structure, with high efficiency, small volume, light weight, etc.The latest news, bilateral joint engine manufacturing base in chongqing municipality has started to install test bed.
文章内之前从未有过的信息；中乌联合研制宽体大客机航空发动机！大运应该也能用。
5月31日，在接受科技日报记者采访时，北京天骄航空产业投资有限公司创新研究院副院长、国家“千人计划”专家王光秋。 中乌新一代航空发动机AI-38（中国天骄航空与乌克兰进步设计局、乌克兰马达西奇公司联合体共同在乌克兰D-18T发动机基础上研制开发）。CJ-2000和AI-38的推力约在30—34吨左右。 而中乌联合研制的AI-38属于衍生型新型大涵道比发动机，其原型机D-18T则是名震遐迩、已服役安-225及安-124两个型号运输机22年的“动力心脏”。乌克兰开发的大型涡扇发动机与罗罗公司的遄达系列发动机具有相同的三转子结构，具有效率高、体积小、重量轻等特点。最新消息，位于重庆的中乌联合发动机制造基地已开始安装试车台。
ps
2017年5月26日，国家工信部安全生产司副巡视员李维嘉一行到重庆天骄航空动力产业基地调研，并与公司领导座谈。天骄航空总裁杜涛、公司相关部门负责人陪同调研。
调研期间，杜涛总裁从企业概况、发展历程、项目进展等方面进行了汇报，其中重点介绍了重庆基地的安全生产工作开展情况。杜涛总裁介绍说，基地占地约7500亩，分为北、中、南3个区，2015年12月底开工建设，经过近一年半的时间，目前北区已经完成部分厂房的建设并即将交付使用，五年后基地将具备涡轴、涡桨、涡扇等多系列、多型号先进航空发动机研发、批产和维修保障能力。
Motor Sich is moving to Chongqing China now,
estimated that there will be more than 2000 Ukrain experts working in Chongqing in the near futrue
According to Ukraine embassy in Beijing on June 6, 2017 website news, June 2, Ukraine's ambassador to China, Mr JiaoMing visit to chongqing, and chongqing leadership talks and visited chongqing tianjiao aviation industry base base (chongqing).JiaoMing ambassador said in talks with the chongqing leadership, the government of Ukraine for aviation engine project attaches great importance to bilateral cooperation, hope to continue to support in chongqing, make tianjiao project model of bilateral cooperation.Ukraine's state news agency and Ukraine other domestic media also reported the event.
chongqing aero engine base was established in 2015, Ukraine embassy official took part in foundation ceremony , this is the ambassador Jiao Ming second time visit , the ambassador came here again and was shocked by the sight.
Mr. JiaoMing praised engine base construction progress, said the construction progress beyond his imagination, such simply unthinkable in Ukraine.
On June 20th and 21st, the department of consular affairs deputy Liu Xu and chongqing vice mayor gui-ping liu met with Ukrainian officials related affairs.
Both sides negotiate a visa in China, the Ukrainian lengthen visa and consular protection problem, especially in chongqing.
chongqing base:
on zhuhai Air show, the joint company displayed several kind of aero engine:
other :
（科技日报北京6月1日电）
The article released some information never heard before;
Bilateral joint development of large wide-body passenger aircraft engine!
On May 31, in an interview with science and technology daily, Beijing tianjiao aviation industry investment co., LTD., innovation, vice President of the institute, the national "one thousand project" expert Wang Guangqiu.Of a new generation of aviation engine AI - 38 (China tianjiao airlines with Ukraine motor sich company based on D - 18 t engine).
CJ - 2000 and AI-38 thrust at about 30-34 tons.And AI - 38 derived type belongs to the new big bypass ratio engine, the prototype D - 18 t is famous for serving Ann - 225 and Ann - 124 two type conveyer for 22 years of "heart". AI-38 has three rotor structure, with high efficiency, small volume, light weight, etc.The latest news, bilateral joint engine manufacturing base in chongqing municipality has started to install test bed.
文章内之前从未有过的信息；中乌联合研制宽体大客机航空发动机！大运应该也能用。
5月31日，在接受科技日报记者采访时，北京天骄航空产业投资有限公司创新研究院副院长、国家“千人计划”专家王光秋。 中乌新一代航空发动机AI-38（中国天骄航空与乌克兰进步设计局、乌克兰马达西奇公司联合体共同在乌克兰D-18T发动机基础上研制开发）。CJ-2000和AI-38的推力约在30—34吨左右。 而中乌联合研制的AI-38属于衍生型新型大涵道比发动机，其原型机D-18T则是名震遐迩、已服役安-225及安-124两个型号运输机22年的“动力心脏”。乌克兰开发的大型涡扇发动机与罗罗公司的遄达系列发动机具有相同的三转子结构，具有效率高、体积小、重量轻等特点。最新消息，位于重庆的中乌联合发动机制造基地已开始安装试车台。
ps
2017年5月26日，国家工信部安全生产司副巡视员李维嘉一行到重庆天骄航空动力产业基地调研，并与公司领导座谈。天骄航空总裁杜涛、公司相关部门负责人陪同调研。
调研期间，杜涛总裁从企业概况、发展历程、项目进展等方面进行了汇报，其中重点介绍了重庆基地的安全生产工作开展情况。杜涛总裁介绍说，基地占地约7500亩，分为北、中、南3个区，2015年12月底开工建设，经过近一年半的时间，目前北区已经完成部分厂房的建设并即将交付使用，五年后基地将具备涡轴、涡桨、涡扇等多系列、多型号先进航空发动机研发、批产和维修保障能力。
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Some of Chinese Naval Gas Turbine. Effort underway to convert R0110 for naval application
China 30MW QC280 gas turbine
China 126MW 9E gas turbine
China QC185 gas turbine
R0110 domestic gas turbine
China QD128 gas turbine
China 30MW QC280 gas turbine
China 126MW 9E gas turbine
China QC185 gas turbine
R0110 domestic gas turbine
China QD128 gas turbine
timepass
Brigadier
As far as, J10 in Pakistan colors are concerns, following are the main reasons;
- India's acquisition of MRCA.
- Constant improvements (A>B>C & now D)
- Reliable Engine.
From above 1 & 3 are almost done & dusted, now 2 is the main reason of delay.
The best way to keep the company alive.How true is this?
Motor Sich is moving to Chongqing China now,
estimated that there will be more than 2000 Ukrain experts working in Chongqing in the near futrue
According to Ukraine embassy in Beijing on June 6, 2017 website news, June 2, Ukraine's ambassador to China, Mr JiaoMing visit to chongqing, and chongqing leadership talks and visited chongqing tianjiao aviation industry base base (chongqing).JiaoMing ambassador said in talks with the chongqing leadership, the government of Ukraine for aviation engine project attaches great importance to bilateral cooperation, hope to continue to support in chongqing, make tianjiao project model of bilateral cooperation.Ukraine's state news agency and Ukraine other domestic media also reported the event.
chongqing aero engine base was established in 2015, Ukraine embassy official took part in foundation ceremony , this is the ambassador Jiao Ming second time visit , the ambassador came here again and was shocked by the sight.
Mr. JiaoMing praised engine base construction progress, said the construction progress beyond his imagination, such simply unthinkable in Ukraine.
On June 20th and 21st, the department of consular affairs deputy Liu Xu and chongqing vice mayor gui-ping liu met with Ukrainian officials related affairs.
Both sides negotiate a visa in China, the Ukrainian lengthen visa and consular protection problem, especially in chongqing.
chongqing base:
on zhuhai Air show, the joint company displayed several kind of aero engine:
other :
（科技日报北京6月1日电）
The article released some information never heard before;
Bilateral joint development of large wide-body passenger aircraft engine!
On May 31, in an interview with science and technology daily, Beijing tianjiao aviation industry investment co., LTD., innovation, vice President of the institute, the national "one thousand project" expert Wang Guangqiu.Of a new generation of aviation engine AI - 38 (China tianjiao airlines with Ukraine motor sich company based on D - 18 t engine).
CJ - 2000 and AI-38 thrust at about 30-34 tons.And AI - 38 derived type belongs to the new big bypass ratio engine, the prototype D - 18 t is famous for serving Ann - 225 and Ann - 124 two type conveyer for 22 years of "heart". AI-38 has three rotor structure, with high efficiency, small volume, light weight, etc.The latest news, bilateral joint engine manufacturing base in chongqing municipality has started to install test bed.
文章内之前从未有过的信息；中乌联合研制宽体大客机航空发动机！大运应该也能用。
5月31日，在接受科技日报记者采访时，北京天骄航空产业投资有限公司创新研究院副院长、国家“千人计划”专家王光秋。 中乌新一代航空发动机AI-38（中国天骄航空与乌克兰进步设计局、乌克兰马达西奇公司联合体共同在乌克兰D-18T发动机基础上研制开发）。CJ-2000和AI-38的推力约在30—34吨左右。 而中乌联合研制的AI-38属于衍生型新型大涵道比发动机，其原型机D-18T则是名震遐迩、已服役安-225及安-124两个型号运输机22年的“动力心脏”。乌克兰开发的大型涡扇发动机与罗罗公司的遄达系列发动机具有相同的三转子结构，具有效率高、体积小、重量轻等特点。最新消息，位于重庆的中乌联合发动机制造基地已开始安装试车台。
ps
2017年5月26日，国家工信部安全生产司副巡视员李维嘉一行到重庆天骄航空动力产业基地调研，并与公司领导座谈。天骄航空总裁杜涛、公司相关部门负责人陪同调研。
调研期间，杜涛总裁从企业概况、发展历程、项目进展等方面进行了汇报，其中重点介绍了重庆基地的安全生产工作开展情况。杜涛总裁介绍说，基地占地约7500亩，分为北、中、南3个区，2015年12月底开工建设，经过近一年半的时间，目前北区已经完成部分厂房的建设并即将交付使用，五年后基地将具备涡轴、涡桨、涡扇等多系列、多型号先进航空发动机研发、批产和维修保障能力。