Chinese Engine Development

b787 said:

Are you this reckless when you write?

Let eme explain you why China is behind the west in jet engines.

Any generation of jet engines has two basic factors to be defined, onw is TWR and the other is SFC.

Russia has engines like NK-25 of 24000 kg of thrust, but the engine is used on Tu-22M, by thrust WS-10 or even F-119 are much less powerful.

But the NK-25 is heavy and big, it weighs almost 3000 kg, same is R-79-300 used in Yak-141, it has a thrust of 15000, but it weighs 3000 kg.

So they are not fifth generation engines but fourth generation engines.

You assessment did not consider size.

What has been wrong on Kaveri? the answer is the LCA is too fat for it, why J-10 is using the Al-31 operationally?
Answer simple the WS-10 is still in tests and it has been only relatively more successful than Kaveri.

XF-5 is designed for a very light aircraft, yes you are right ATD-X is light and small, it has the same drawbacks J-20 has, J-20 is under powered, it needs to lit its afterburner to reach supersonic speeds so basically it is flying on fourth generation engines.


The Brazilian TJ-200 jet engine for example generates a TWR of close to 11:1

see its aplication on cabure 300 open link

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You were laughing as the TJ-200 was not advanced enough just because it weighs 20 lb and generates a thrust of 220 lb, but the engine already has find use on a cruise missile and size matters on aircraft of this size specially if you want small aircraft carry this missile.

The main advantage of this missile, is obviously size but SFC is another, because it does not need lots of fuel, NK-25 is of 24000 kg of thrust but also it gobbles fuel in the same way.

This shows then why you do not understand why Russia is struggling to catch up with the west and China is also behind

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Are you this reckless when you read?? No one here needs you to explain why China is behind the West or Russia when it comes to engines. If you reread my earlier posts, you'll see you fabricated this entire argument in your mind. It is obvious that the West leads, then Russia, then China. And you certainly have me confused with someone else when you said I was laughing as a Brazilian missile engine cus I've never heard of it before, and would never dream of comparing it to a turbofan to try to make a point LOL. Where are you getting these ideas from? Reread my earlier posts, and answer ONLY to the points that I point out. Just because I disagreed on some points does not mean you can assume I disagreed on everything. I shouldn't have to tell you this.

I only disagreed that China is behind Japan and that it is only slightly ahead of India.

The only thing wrong with the Kaveri is that it's slightly too fat? Are you kidding me? Do you have a BS filter in your mind? You think a scrapped engine is a perfectly fine one, except that its diameter is slightly high? LOL So they decided to scrap the afterburner and use it on drones? And where the bloody hell is it on drones then? Perfectly good engine, I'm sure they'll build a drone around it. Where's that? Instead, they kill the program. Slightly fat, eh? LOL If that's the case, their manager must be from Pakistan LOLOL

Why J-10 uses AL-31? Cus it's a great option. This has been beaten to death before in the J-10 threads. Why switch to WS-10 when AL-31s are equally good, being offered at a cheap price, (Russia is an ally that needs the exports) and Shenyang is eating up all the WS-10's being produced for Flankers? 400+ engines flying on operational Flankers but because J-10 doesn't use them, that means they're still testing??? B787 definition of "in testing": Not used by J-10! LOLOL Well then I guess WS-9 is in testing too cus J-10 doesn't use it haha. Doesn't matter hundreds of JH-7 fly on it.

Wanna know what engine's really being tested? XF-5. Not on any operational aircraft. Flew once on an undersized tech demonstrator possibly never meant to enter service. Under-powered = had to make a midget stealth plane with barely enough room for 2 missiles inside the bays so the engines could fly it. If they were really on the same level as China, they'd make a 130KN class engine and make a larger stealth fighter carrying 6-8 missiles so it would at least have the option of entering service. Or do you think they're just stupid and never thought about that?

LOL Being too fat was like number 58 on the list of most pressing problems for the Kaveri. Number 57 was, "Explodes when the wind blows."

manqiangrexue said:

Are you this reckless when you read?? No one here needs you to explain why China is behind the West or Russia when it comes to engines.

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i never said China is behind Japan, i said they are matched, if Japan is slightly ahead perhaps is by 2 years at the most, but in my opinion they are matched, the advantage of China is they are using the WS-10 to power the Su-27 clones, which is a good step.
Japan is using the XF-7 on PX-3, so they are more or less at the same level but they have different programs.

India as i said they are behind, why? simply the Kaveri has not gotten any operational use, but it is a 4th generation engine, China has gotten a very interesting policy by using WS-10 on Su-27 clones, but the engine very likely is not providing the TWR to give the J-10 which is a single jet fighter all the reliability it needs, also by using the latest Al-31M2, they show WS-10 does not provide the needed TWR.

But things do not stay static, i am sure WS-10 will power J-10, as i am sure Kaveri will be developed into a new engine, in the same way i am sure Brazil will develop engines to power aircraft like Phenom.

So have a less jingoistic view, progress can not be confined to a single country, sooner or later more nations will develop engines, i am sure the Japanese will succeed and built a more advanced engine.

The advantage i see in China`s program is the very large military budget they have, but it does not mean there are not other ways to finance your programs, Russia uses exports, Brazil is using also a low key aproach and same is India

b787 said:

i never said China is behind Japan, i said they are matched, if Japan is slightly ahead perhaps is by 2 years at the most, but in my opinion they are matched, the advantage of China is they are using the WS-10 to power the Su-27 clones, which is a good step.
Japan is using the XF-7 on PX-3, so they are more or less at the same level but they have different programs.

India as i said they are behind, why? simply the Kaveri has not gotten any operational use, but it is a 4th generation engine, China has gotten a very interesting policy by using WS-10 on Su-27 clones, but the engine very likely is not providing the TWR to give the J-10 which is a single jet fighter all the reliability it needs, also by using the latest Al-31M2, they show WS-10 does not provide the needed TWR.

But things do not stay static, i am sure WS-10 will power J-10, as i am sure Kaveri will be developed into a new engine, in the same way i am sure Brazil will develop engines to power aircraft like Phenom.

So have a less jingoistic view, progress can not be confined to a single country, sooner or later more nations will develop engines, i am sure the Japanese will succeed and built a more advanced engine.

The advantage i see in China`s program is the very large military budget they have, but it does not mean there are not other ways to finance your programs, Russia uses exports, Brazil is using also a low key aproach and same is India

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Yeah, your assessment of Japan is far off. They have an engine that is a tech demonstrator with very little thrust compared to a Chinese engine that is operational with almost triple the thrust and no crashes with years of operation on over 200 aircraft. The only thing that the XF-5 has on par with WS-10 is the TWR (and I've shown you a $34 RC engine on Ebay from Hong Kong with higher TWR than either so that's how reliable TWR is when use alone to gauge engine technology). XF-7: Operational, but max thrust 60kN (though it is not a fighter engine) so say no more. China: Operational engine 130+kN. That by no means makes Japan matched with or "slightly ahead" of China. That makes Japan far behind.

You said India is behind China, "but not by much." Which is hilarious because Kaveri is not a 4th generation engine; it's a cancelled project that never flew on fighter and was never installed on a drone. It doesn't even have the gravity to be compared to functioning engines. India's so far behind China it hasn't even entered its running lane yet. It tried to but it tripped. Let's see if it tries again.

I agree and I'm also sure that Japan and India will both develop more advanced engines at some point in the future, but the question is when. We are assessing the now. If we talk about the future, then I'm sure that Chinese engines will eventually lead the world.

b787 said:

China has gotten a very interesting policy by using WS-10 on Su-27 clones, but the engine very likely is not providing the TWR to give the J-10 which is a single jet fighter all the reliability it needs, also by using the latest Al-31M2, they show WS-10 does not provide the needed TWR.

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TWR and reliability are completely independent from each other! Why are you talking like TWR determines reliability?

Go to the J-10 thread and you will see a picture of operational J-10B using WS-10 actually; it has the thrust it needs. But why would you want half your J-10 using the AL-31 than you bought and half using WS-10? That's a maintenance crew nightmare! Why not get some more using F-119? LOL That'll really make your ground crew quit! China is not making enough WS-10X to be put on both Flankers and J-10; it's supplementing its need by buying advanced AL-31 from Russia so Flankers use WS-10, J-10 (mostly) use AL-31. (Perhaps those 2 odd J-10 are to study how well other aspects of the WS-10 mesh with the J-10B aerodynamic design when optimized to each other.) What is so difficult to understand about that that you must always resort to the childishly simple conclusion that because an engine doesn't often power a type of plane, that means that it isn't good enough to do so?

I swear, I've never thought of myself as exceptionally knowledgeable in the engine department but you make me feel like Gordon Ramsay talking to a sous chef who keeps dropping pans of sauce on the ground!

superdog said:

...I thought someone who made such glaring claims about Chinese engine development would at least have the basic knowledge that, when we talk about Chinese engines, WZ doesn't mean WuZhi (attack helicopter), it means WoZhou (turboshaft). The WZ series and QC series are both lines of Chinese gas turbine engines, just like the WS series, the WJ series, and the QD series.

So it appears that you're not familiar with the naming classification of Chinese engines, and that made you think I was 'off topic'. I'm sorry I didn't specify it more clearly for you in my previous post. I hope the above explanation would suffice this time.

You seem a bit agitated because I raised serious doubts about your claims. I'm a long time follower of Chinese engine development, I doubt your words because they contradicts severely with what we know about Chinese engines

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Cut rhetoric like this that leads to arguments and trolling.

Thanks.

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manqiangrexue said:

Yeah, your assessment of Japan is far off. They have an engine that is a tech demonstrator with very little thrust compared to a Chinese engine that is operational with almost triple the thrust and no crashes with years of operation on over 200 aircraft. The only thing that the XF-5 has on par with WS-10 is the TWR (and I've shown you a $34 RC engine on Ebay from Hong Kong with higher TWR than either so that's how reliable TWR is when use alone to gauge engine technology). XF-7: Operational, but max thrust 60kN (though it is not a fighter engine) so say no more. China: Operational engine 130+kN. That by no means makes Japan matched with or "slightly ahead" of China. That makes Japan far behind.

You said India is behind China, "but not by much." Which is hilarious because Kaveri is not a 4th generation engine; it's a cancelled project that never flew on fighter and was never installed on a drone. It doesn't even have the gravity to be compared to functioning engines. India's so far behind China it hasn't even entered its running lane yet. It tried to but it tripped. Let's see if it tries again.

I agree and I'm also sure that Japan and India will both develop more advanced engines at some point in the future, but the question is when. We are assessing the now. If we talk about the future, then I'm sure that Chinese engines will eventually lead the world.

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Man you are really thick, you still do not get it, listen when Germany developed the Jumo 004 engine the engine the powered the Me-262, the TWR was not even 2:1, it was a 1:1.25 ratio, do you get it now, the ratio has been grown with the generations, the Snecma atar of Mirage III was 4:1.

The Al-31 is a fourth generation because gets a 7.8:1, so the XF-5 is achieving the generations breakthrough, and same is the XF-7, why Japan is not building something like Al-31, wait wait they do, the F-100 is licensed in Japan, there is no point for the Japanese to rip off the USA, they got the technology and they do not need to rip off the P&W company.

Most F-15s built in Japan have their engines build domestically so the ATD-X is a demostrator, China is building the WS-10, for Su-27 clones but still buys Al-31s for J-10s, for operational J-10s you have Al-31s, your fantasy land says because they got many, which is not true, specially if your J-20 has Al-31s which means they need a very reliable engine for single engine aircraft with worse TWR at full take off weight than the twin engine Su-27, the J-10 to have a TWR of more than 1, it will have to keep low weight, less than 12000 kg, this will limit range, payload and since it is a single engine one engine is gone your J-10 falls to the ground.

On J-20 all the stealth put, it is gone once it lits the afterburner mode, so the J-20 is at this moment stuck with an engine unsuitable, same is the Japanese aircraft.

The only nation with a true 5th generation engine is the USA, Russia admits the 117 is failing in the SFC requirement to be called 5th generation, thus they are developing type 30

Kaveri has not been cancelled but re-named into new programs.

The Su-47 aka S-37 Berkut had engines D-30F11 engines of 15500kg of thrust, yes but they were not even 5th generation, they gulp a lot of fuel and are pretty heavy, they weigh 2416 kg dry, so yes you can fit a J-20 with it and it will fly at supersonic speeds emulating the F-22, much better than Al-31, but the penalty in fuel will require the weight of MiG-31

b787 said:

Man you are really thick, you still do not get it, listen when Germany developed the Jumo 004 engine the engine the powered the Me-262, the TWR was not even 2:1, it was a 1:1.25 ratio, do you get it now, the ratio has been grown with the generations, the Snecma atar of Mirage III was 4:1.

The Al-31 is a fourth generation because gets a 7.8:1, so the XF-5 is achieving the generations breakthrough, and same is the XF-7, why Japan is not building something like Al-31, wait wait they do, the F-100 is licensed in Japan, there is no point for the Japanese to rip off the USA, they got the technology and they do not need to rip off the P&W company.

Most F-15s built in Japan have their engines build domestically so the ATD-X is a demostrator, China is building the WS-10, for Su-27 clones but still buys Al-31s for J-10s, for operational J-10s you have Al-31s, your fantasy land says because they got many, which is not true, specially if your J-20 has Al-31s which means they need a very reliable engine for single engine aircraft with worse TWR at full take off weight than the twin engine Su-27, the J-10 to have a TWR of more than 1, it will have to keep low weight, less than 12000 kg, this will limit range, payload and since it is a single engine one engine is gone your J-10 falls to the ground.

On J-20 all the stealth put, it is gone once it lits the afterburner mode, so the J-20 is at this moment stuck with an engine unsuitable, same is the Japanese aircraft.

The only nation with a true 5th generation engine is the USA, Russia admits the 117 is failing in the SFC requirement to be called 5th generation, thus they are developing type 30

Kaveri has not been cancelled but re-named into new programs.

The Su-47 aka S-37 Berkut had engines D-30F11 engines of 15500kg of thrust, yes but they were not even 5th generation, they gulp a lot of fuel and are pretty heavy, they weigh 2416 kg dry, so yes you can fit a J-20 with it and it will fly at supersonic speeds emulating the F-22, much better than Al-31, but the penalty in fuel will require the weight of MiG-31

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Some member (AFB?) commented a while back that you seem to suffer from information overload, and when you get challenged in your points, you obfuscate. So true in this case.

When you jumped into this discussion, you made your claims that Russia is 15 years behind the West and China is 30 years behind, furthermore you claimed that Japan, India and Brazil are more or less equal, matched or close to China in jet engines with very dubious evidence and arguments. You were challenged, particularly wrt your last claims, by several people, yet instead of focusing on your points and refutations against them, you threw out tons of distracting, unrelated information and straw-man arguments, and indeed, began to obfuscate.

I would suggest everyone to stop this pointless debate. Clearly it's going nowhere and you're just continuing to dump torrent of information without really addressing the key points.

b787 said:

Man you are really thick, you still do not get it, listen when Germany developed the Jumo 004 engine the engine the powered the Me-262, the TWR was not even 2:1, it was a 1:1.25 ratio, do you get it now, the ratio has been grown with the generations, the Snecma atar of Mirage III was 4:1.

The Al-31 is a fourth generation because gets a 7.8:1, so the XF-5 is achieving the generations breakthrough, and same is the XF-7, why Japan is not building something like Al-31, wait wait they do, the F-100 is licensed in Japan, there is no point for the Japanese to rip off the USA, they got the technology and they do not need to rip off the P&W company.

Most F-15s built in Japan have their engines build domestically so the ATD-X is a demostrator, China is building the WS-10, for Su-27 clones but still buys Al-31s for J-10s, for operational J-10s you have Al-31s, your fantasy land says because they got many, which is not true, specially if your J-20 has Al-31s which means they need a very reliable engine for single engine aircraft with worse TWR at full take off weight than the twin engine Su-27, the J-10 to have a TWR of more than 1, it will have to keep low weight, less than 12000 kg, this will limit range, payload and since it is a single engine one engine is gone your J-10 falls to the ground.

On J-20 all the stealth put, it is gone once it lits the afterburner mode, so the J-20 is at this moment stuck with an engine unsuitable, same is the Japanese aircraft.

The only nation with a true 5th generation engine is the USA, Russia admits the 117 is failing in the SFC requirement to be called 5th generation, thus they are developing type 30

Kaveri has not been cancelled but re-named into new programs.

The Su-47 aka S-37 Berkut had engines D-30F11 engines of 15500kg of thrust, yes but they were not even 5th generation, they gulp a lot of fuel and are pretty heavy, they weigh 2416 kg dry, so yes you can fit a J-20 with it and it will fly at supersonic speeds emulating the F-22, much better than Al-31, but the penalty in fuel will require the weight of MiG-31

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Why is there so much useless junk in your response, such as the TWR of German jets, Berkut engine, MiG-31, AL-31 afterburner on J-20?? We are talking about China, India, Japan. Now I see why people get pissed off when they debate with you. They feel like they're wading through a pile of garbage. It's a skill to keep your responses concise.

No, it's you who doesn't get the TWR argument. Everyone else does, but not you. When you see everyone else on the road driving the "wrong way" then I suggest you turn yourself around. I realize that each generation of turbofan usually has higher TWR; they have higher thrust too. But you cannot classify engines solely on TWR, do you understand that? Or what is that toy I showed you? TWR 12, thrust 2.15kg so 5th gen engine?? There are model toy engines with TWR over 20. What are they? 7-8th gen? It is only in your "fantasy land" that 2 engines with similar TWR but one of >130kN operational, and one <50kN prototype can be considered similar level.

What 2 programs did Kaveri get split into? Fail 1 and Fail 2? LOL What's the progress? Clearly, at this stage, it's nowhere near in shape to be compared to any country with a working turbofan.

You have insane excuses for India and Japan. Kaveri's only problem was that it was a little too big! Japan only has a midget engine because they're super nice and didn't wanna anger P&W! But when it comes to China, if engine is not on hordes of J-10, then it's unreliable! Engine on >200 operational Flankers? Doesn't count! Needs to be on J-10! Every good engine must be on J-10 or it's rubbish! LOL Chinese manufacturing can't make enough? Don't believe that! If they don't make 500 a year and put them all on J-10, then that's proof they don't work! LOL You're a joke. Even brat lost his patience with you and that's very difficult to do.

b787 said:

Man you are really thick, you still do not get it, listen when Germany developed the Jumo 004 engine the engine the powered the Me-262, the TWR was not even 2:1, it was a 1:1.25 ratio, do you get it now, the ratio has been grown with the generations, the Snecma atar of Mirage III was 4:1.

The Al-31 is a fourth generation because gets a 7.8:1, so the XF-5 is achieving the generations breakthrough, and same is the XF-7, why Japan is not building something like Al-31, wait wait they do, the F-100 is licensed in Japan, there is no point for the Japanese to rip off the USA, they got the technology and they do not need to rip off the P&W company.

Most F-15s built in Japan have their engines build domestically so the ATD-X is a demostrator, China is building the WS-10, for Su-27 clones but still buys Al-31s for J-10s, for operational J-10s you have Al-31s, your fantasy land says because they got many, which is not true, specially if your J-20 has Al-31s which means they need a very reliable engine for single engine aircraft with worse TWR at full take off weight than the twin engine Su-27, the J-10 to have a TWR of more than 1, it will have to keep low weight, less than 12000 kg, this will limit range, payload and since it is a single engine one engine is gone your J-10 falls to the ground.

On J-20 all the stealth put, it is gone once it lits the afterburner mode, so the J-20 is at this moment stuck with an engine unsuitable, same is the Japanese aircraft.

The only nation with a true 5th generation engine is the USA, Russia admits the 117 is failing in the SFC requirement to be called 5th generation, thus they are developing type 30

Kaveri has not been cancelled but re-named into new programs.

The Su-47 aka S-37 Berkut had engines D-30F11 engines of 15500kg of thrust, yes but they were not even 5th generation, they gulp a lot of fuel and are pretty heavy, they weigh 2416 kg dry, so yes you can fit a J-20 with it and it will fly at supersonic speeds emulating the F-22, much better than Al-31, but the penalty in fuel will require the weight of MiG-31

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You still don't get his point, which was actually pretty simple: you can't directly compare the "advanceness" or "generation" of engines in different thrust classes just by looking at their TWR numbers.

For example, the J85 with afterburner can reach a TWR between 7-8, and the F-100/110 with afterburner can also achieve a TWR between 7-8, but they're not really the same generation of engines, and they're not "equally advanced" or "equally difficult to develop". There are also special use turbojet engines than can reach insane TWR, such as the RD-41 that the Russians produced back in the 1980s, it has a TWR of 14 or above. You can push the TWR way up by greatly reducing overall engine size or by reducing durability, the TWR number alone is not indicative of how advanced an engine is. Only when comparing engines in similar thrust class and usage can you use TWR to compare how advanced the engine is. Even then, TWR is not the only determining factor, just a quick indicator.