Chinese Engine Development

siegecrossbow

General
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据中航工业发布的2015年社会责任报告消息,截至2015年底,410厂已向海军、空军交付涡扇10发动机不少于400余台,被用于J11B、J11D、J16等机型,装备了不少于5个航空团。虽然经历了磕磕碰碰,但截至目前,没有一架搭载涡扇10发动机的战机因发动机故障坠毁。

According to CAIC, over 400 WS-10 engines have been delivered to PLAAF and PLAN. They've been used to equip domestic flankers like the J-11B/Ds and J-16s. Despite numerous challenges encountered during the developmental phase, not a single WS-10 equipped fighter crashed due to engine failure.

I'd say that the WS-10 is ready and good to go. Should the Russians stop delivering AL-31s for some reason, China could still use WS-10s on J-20 as a stop-gag measure.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
According to CAIC, over 400 WS-10 engines have been delivered to PLAAF and PLAN. They've been used to equip domestic flankers like the J-11B/Ds and J-16s. Despite numerous challenges encountered during the developmental phase, not a single WS-10 equipped fighter crashed due to engine failure.
That's what the Communist Party-controlled news media says, but can we believe it? I'm not so sure.

I'd say that the WS-10 is ready and good to go. Should the Russians stop delivering AL-31s for some reason, China could still use WS-10s on J-20 as a stop-gag measure.
And yet, we haven't seen any J-20 test planes using WS-10 engines. Why is that?
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Do you have evidence of a J-11B crash? Don't say coverup because we've seen plenty of J-10/JH-7 crashes this past year.
Given every Tom, Dick, and Harry has smart phones these days, not even the CCP can keep all crashes under warps. On the other hand, the causes of such crashes can always be finessed...
 

flyzies

Junior Member
Given every Tom, Dick, and Harry has smart phones these days, not even the CCP can keep all crashes under warps. On the other hand, the causes of such crashes can always be finessed...

In other words, you haven't seen / don't know of any / don't have evidence that any of the J-11Bs have crashed.
I completely agree that aircraft mishaps are getting harder to 'cover up' since so many people now have access to technology...which makes the case that no J-11Bs have crashed as to date all the more stronger.
 

superdog

Junior Member
That's what the Communist Party-controlled news media says, but can we believe it? I'm not so sure.

And yet, we haven't seen any J-20 test planes using WS-10 engines. Why is that?
Then why do you bother believing anything under this thread? All engine development news can easily be faked, and almost all information about Chinese engine development came from either Communist Party-controlled news media or Communist Party-controlled research institutions/factories/companies. Maybe WS-10/13/15/18/20 were all propaganda and never existed at all? All that we have seen were just models and Al-31s with slightly modified nozzles?

The point is, having suspicion is fine, but suspicion with no logical reasoning or evidence to back it up will get you absolutely nowhere. There is no reason that AVIC should suddenly make this claim without being questioned, if such a claim is blatantly false and the PLA knows it. There is also no evidence, whether direct or indirect, that prompts us to doubt this claim.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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That's what the Communist Party-controlled news media says, but can we believe it? I'm not so sure.

It's actually quite a reasonable claim, considering all the WS-10s in mass service are aboard Flankers, which are twin engined aircraft... meaning such an aircraft would usually need both engines to fail to actually allow it to crash.


And yet, we haven't seen any J-20 test planes using WS-10 engines. Why is that?

Probably because during the J-20's early test phase the Al-31s were judged to be more reliable and a better known quantity than WS-10 (this was five years ago, remember) and so they went with Al-31s instead.

Now in 2016, it is likely that the air force's (or CAC's) assessment and confidence of WS-10's reliability and performance is far greater than in 2011, but for J-20s development it makes no reason to switch to a WS-10 variant because WS-10 probably does not offer an overwhelming advantage to the Al-31s in many important domains such as thrust or reliability or MTBO. If they did switch to WS-10s for J-20s, it would introduce additional costs and time to J-20's development and testing phase, but the lack of significant advantages in performance compared to the Al-31s currently being used, probably makes those costs not worthwhile.

Therefore, it's likely that we won't see WS-10s on J-20 at all to replace Al-31s because even if WS-10s are better than Al-31s, they probably are not that much better, and it's more sensible to wait for WS-15s instead, where the additional cost and time for integrating and testing the engines will produce a much more significant increase in capability.

On the other hand, if the source of Al-31s for J-20 eventually dries up for some reason, then they will probably have to use WS-10s and they will have to contend with the costs and delays in integrating a similar engine to replace the Al-31s in the first place.


===

On a tangent, I've noticed over the years of talking about engine development, that people tend to over simplify the relationship between engine capability/performance and whether it is adopted or not.

That is to say, most people believe that if engine X is adopted over engine Y for a particular aircraft, then it must mean engine X is therefore inherently and significantly superior to engine Y -- but there are a massive number of confounding factors which are arguably as important if not more important than sheer performance of engines.

These factors can include: cost to performance ratios of both engines; the cost and time of integrating a new engine vs another; the production rate (and thus availability) of one engine versus another and whether the production rate of one engine type is enough to fulfill airframe requirements; the familiarity of an air force for one engine vs another; and whether the existing logistics infrastructure of an air force is already better suited to one particular engine versus another, etc.
 

superdog

Junior Member
Probably because during the J-20's early test phase the Al-31s were judged to be more reliable and a better known quantity than WS-10 (this was five years ago, remember) and so they went with Al-31s instead.

Now in 2016, it is likely that the air force's (or CAC's) assessment and confidence of WS-10's reliability and performance is far greater than in 2011, but for J-20s development it makes no reason to switch to a WS-10 variant because WS-10 probably does not offer an overwhelming advantage to the Al-31s in many important domains such as thrust or reliability or MTBO. If they did switch to WS-10s for J-20s, it would introduce additional costs and time to J-20's development and testing phase, but the lack of significant advantages in performance compared to the Al-31s currently being used, probably makes those costs not worthwhile.

Therefore, it's likely that we won't see WS-10s on J-20 at all to replace Al-31s because even if WS-10s are better than Al-31s, they probably are not that much better, and it's more sensible to wait for WS-15s instead, where the additional cost and time for integrating and testing the engines will produce a much more significant increase in capability.

On the other hand, if the source of Al-31s for J-20 eventually dries up for some reason, then they will probably have to use WS-10s and they will have to contend with the costs and delays in integrating a similar engine to replace the Al-31s in the first place.
To add to your answer, the Al-31 also has different physical dimensions (and therefore different intake and mounting setup) to the WS-10, so you can't just switch between the two like plug and play PC hardware, some airframe and system redesign is required. It would also be more complicated than on the flanker bodies because the engine compartments are buried within the airframe, and there are more stringent physical requirements due to stealth optimization and internal weapons bay. A switch to WS-10 can be done, but not without some major modifications to the blueprint.

The fact that J-20 continue to show up with Al-31 is actually a good sign. If we start to see J-20 adopting WS-10 (assuming we can confirm it is WS-10 and not WS-15), it would mean that the WS-15 is still very very far away from usable. It means that Chengdu is forced to adopt current gen engine to ensure engine self-sufficiency, and this self-sufficiency is only important if it will stay like that for years to come.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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To add to your answer, the Al-31 also has different physical dimensions (and therefore different intake and mounting setup) to the WS-10, so you can't just switch between the two like plug and play PC hardware, some airframe and system redesign is required. It would also be more complicated than on the flanker bodies because the engine compartments are buried within the airframe, and there are more stringent physical requirements due to stealth optimization and internal weapons bay. A switch to WS-10 can be done, but not without some major modifications to the blueprint.

Yes, a change from Al-31 to WS-10 will obviously require a degree of change to the airframe and will require some additional testing... but the difference in overall physical dimensions between Al-31 and WS-10 are not as great as say, WS-10 and RD-93.

The Al-31 and WS-10 are most definitely in the same general size class, thrust class and weight class as each other, and as we can see via the likes of SAC's Flankers (J-11B, J-16, etc) using WS-10s and J-10B/Cs being tested with WS-10s, they can adopt them with minimal (if any) external, visible modification to the airframe or the intakes compared to variants which use Al-31s.

So I do think that Al-31 and WS-10 can be swapped out in a near "plug and play" way, but it would require some modifications, testing and validation on the aircraft type in question to allow that kind of switch to viable in the first case.
In the case of J-20, that additional cost of such modifications, testing and validation to allow both Al-31 and WS-10 to be used probably isn't worth it for a mere interim engine.


The fact that J-20 continue to show up with Al-31 is actually a good sign. If we start to see J-20 adopting WS-10 (assuming we can confirm it is WS-10 and not WS-15), it would mean that the WS-15 is still very very far away from usable. It means that Chengdu is forced to adopt current gen engine to ensure engine self-sufficiency, and this self-sufficiency is only important if it will stay like that for years to come.

Possibly, though I'd be wary of that line of reasoning. I can envision them being happy to continue using Al-31s even if WS-15s are many years away, due to the fact that it may still offer a perfectly competent interim engine capability that is already a known quantity on the airframe, and where the benefits of self sufficiency may be viewed as not worth the additional complexity of having a large number of J-20s with interim engines that are both Al-31s and WS-10s.

It will also depend on how many WS-10s they can produce, and the cost of the WS-10s relative to the Al-31s (Series 3), and how many J-20s they already have flying with Al-31s to begin with.
 
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