Do you mistaken J-10B for WS-10B?
Quickie's quotation did not mention WS-10B.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
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Quickie's quotation did not mention WS-10B.Slow down. Quickie's quotation of the 2014 interview did not mention WS-10B, but only WS-10.
Blackstone
Brigadier
A Popular Science article mentioned WS-10B in J-10B models.
J-10B “Vigorous Dragon” Fighter Jets are a Full Set, Soon to be a Regiment
By Posted October 1, 2014
Top Boy via
100 Percent Chinese
This J-10B prototype, 1035, is installed with an indigenous WS-10B turbofan engine (notice the bright silver afterburner nozzle), which makes it a completely Chinese fighter. However, the PLAAF choose to install the J-10B with the Russian AL-31FN III due to slightly higher thrust, lower costs and compatibility with existing J-10A logistics and supply chains.
New pictures have emerged of additional production models of the J-10B “Vigorous Dragon” fighter jets, one of the latest planes to equip China’s growing air force (PLAAF).
Chinese Military Aviation
Wearing PLAAF Gray
Here is a J-10B painted in operational color scheme of the PLAAF, complete with an extended refueling probe on the right side forward of cockpit. Regrettably, the angle of the photographer blocks the yellow serial number on the ventral tail, only the forward "3" can be discerned.
The J-10B differs from the original J-10A model in several ways: active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, integrated jamming pods, IRST sensor, diverterless supersonic intake (DSI), and an uprated AL-31FN Series III turbofan engine. These upgrades give the J-10B increased engine power, infrared detection against stealthy aircraft and increased jamming capability against enemy missiles. In particular, the DSI has two advantages over traditional engine intakes: it saves weight and is more stealthy against radar. The most important upgrade in the J-10B is its AESA radar, which features a longer range, frequency hopping to foil enemy jamming and higher power to track stealth aircraft (such as the US B-2, F-22, and F-35) at long range. The J-10B also possesses a strong multirole capability-- it can carry both 100km ranged PL-12 air to air missiles and LS-500J laser guided bombs on the same mission. These advanced "4.5+ generation" features places the J-10B in the same class as the F-16 Block 60 (flown only by the UAE), French Rafale, and Eurofighter Typhoon.
Xinhui via China Defense Forum
J-10S Armed
This J-10S double seated fighter PL-12 BVRAAM (the larger ones, closer to fuselage) and smaller PL-5 WVRAAM (further away from the fuselage) training rounds. The J-10A and its twin seater variant, J-10S, differ from the J-10B by having a conventional air intake, shorter nose cone, mechanically scanned pulse doppler radar, no IRST, a less powerful engine and a shorter vertical tail.
Andreas Rupprecht, via China Defense Forum
J-10B "122"
The 22nd production model of the J-10B, numbered at "122", rolls off the production line in Chengdu. The J-10B is posed to enter operational service in the Chinese Air Force.
The "122" serial number indicates that this fighter is the 22nd J-10B fighter to be produced for the PLAAF; the highest production serial number to date is "124". Since late 2013, Chengdu Aviation Corporation has begun serial production of the J-10B, the latest Chinese fighter, which had its first flight in 2008. There are also three prototype J-10Bs, numbered 1031, 1034 and 1035. Compared to all the other J-10s, which have Russian AL-31FN engines, Number 1035 was fitted with a domestic WS-10B turbofan engine, though the WS-10B was not adopted, likely for cost reasons and in order to streamline logistics. This is potentially significant to the international arms trade. A J-10B powered by the WS-10B would be a completely domestic Chinese fighter, thus bypassing any Russian objections J-10B exports, which could compete with the MiG-35 in foreign markets.
Quickie
Colonel
It could be that the spokesman was wrongly quoted on the J-10B part since we know that the WS-10 was still being tested on the J-10B. We know the bit on the J-11B was actually correct.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
I honestly think he just got ahead of himself since he surely knew that the Taihang was doing very well on J-11B and they were ready to produce operational J-10B/C with it very soon (as we are seeing now) and then, there's the issue of gearbox location differentiating those used on J-10 from 11, causing a designation change, so instead of getting very specific and detailed on what was happening with which variant on which aircraft, he did this interview for the layman and just said, yeah, WS-10 mass service on J-10 and J-11.
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Sorry to say so, that report never mentioned a WS-10B in an operational, combat-ready regiment but just the establishment of a first J-10B unit soon and the testing of that new engine in one J-10B - namely no. 1035 - but not in production aircraft.
I think SD members here get self-confused and arguing with one self.
I read the link that Quickie posted again
There is no reference of WS-10B. It is only WS-10. Considering so far all open information we have seen are either WS-10 or FWS-10? Never WS-10A and WS-10B. What we see in the 2014 Zhuhai show is WS-10 12000-14000kgf.
Can it be that A and B are ONCE AGAIN a netizen invention, but not an official designation? I believe so. So one can argue what variant of WS-10 J-10B 1035 uses, 12000kgf or 14000kgf. For that, we can't tell at all. But arguing because "WS-10B" is only available in 2015 rather than 2014 and discredit the speaker is like "one makes a statement to prove another self-made statement". (I don't know the English term for that).
The speaker's statement in that interview is "WS-10 is mature, it has a power range (different variants) from 12000 to 14000kgf, it has been mounted on many planes." He did NOT say which variant J-10B 1035 used.
I read the link that Quickie posted again
There is no reference of WS-10B. It is only WS-10. Considering so far all open information we have seen are either WS-10 or FWS-10? Never WS-10A and WS-10B. What we see in the 2014 Zhuhai show is WS-10 12000-14000kgf.
Can it be that A and B are ONCE AGAIN a netizen invention, but not an official designation? I believe so. So one can argue what variant of WS-10 J-10B 1035 uses, 12000kgf or 14000kgf. For that, we can't tell at all. But arguing because "WS-10B" is only available in 2015 rather than 2014 and discredit the speaker is like "one makes a statement to prove another self-made statement". (I don't know the English term for that).
The speaker's statement in that interview is "WS-10 is mature, it has a power range (different variants) from 12000 to 14000kgf, it has been mounted on many planes." He did NOT say which variant J-10B 1035 used.
Ahhhmm ... in general I have to agree, the designation A, B, or whatever is maybe not official, however widely accepted that the WS-10A (gearbox on top) is used by the J-11A and quoted from Huitong, the WS-10B (gearbox on the bottom) is for the J-10B since both are not interchangeable.
The point is that in this interview he mentioned that the WS-10 - sans any letter - is in production for serial J-10Bs ... and that is simply wrong.
The point is that in this interview he mentioned that the WS-10 - sans any letter - is in production for serial J-10Bs ... and that is simply wrong.
duncanidaho
Junior Member
Maybe not. Zhuhai Airshow was in November 2014, I think at that time the contract for the WS-10 for J-10B/Cs was signed and the engines already in production.
Even Reuters can't resist the temptation to take some shots against Chinese engine technology...
By Siva Govindasamy
SINGAPORE (Reuters) - China has built a potent military machine over the past 30 years but is struggling to develop advanced engines that would allow its warplanes to match Western fighters in combat, foreign and Chinese industry sources said.
The country's engine technology lags that of United Technologies unit Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and Rolls-Royce , said Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.
China's Defence Ministry, in a brief statement to Reuters, said there was a "definite gap" between Chinese military technology and some developed countries, adding Beijing would continue to strengthen its armed forces.
Western restrictions on arms exports to China prohibit the sale of Western engines for military use, forcing China to rely on homegrown designs or engines Russia has agreed to sell.
"Chinese engine-makers face a multitude of problems," said Michael Raska, assistant professor in the Military Transformations Programme at Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.
Among the issues, China's J-20 and J-31 stealth fighters cannot super-cruise, or fly at supersonic speeds like their closest rivals, Lockheed Martin's F-22 and F-35 stealth planes, without using after-burners, said two industry sources who follow Beijing's military programs closely.
A J-31 stealth fighter (background) of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force lands on a …
After-burners remove a warplane's stealthiness, a capability that allows them to escape radar detection.
Even the warplane engine that experts consider to be China's best has reliability issues, said the sources, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.
SOUTH CHINA SEA
A Chinese military expert, who has knowledge of the government's defense policy but who declined to be identified, said Chinese fighter jets could not perform as well as American warplanes because of inferior engine technology.
That puts China at a disadvantage should its warplanes be pitted against U.S. jet fighters or those from security ally Japan in Asia's disputed waters, the industry sources and security experts said.
Chinese warplanes are likely to come into increasing contact with U.S. fighters over the South China Sea in the years ahead after Beijing conducted its first test flights this month to one of three island runways it is building in the contested Spratly archipelago, security experts said.
A Chinese J-11 fighter jet is seen flying near a U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon about 215 km (135 miles) eas …
In any conflict, China would likely rely on sheer numbers of fighters as well as a growing arsenal of sophisticated missiles that can be launched from warships or land, they added.
To be sure, China has made warplane engine development a priority in recent years, sources said.
The Shanghai-based Galleon group, which provides consulting services to the aerospace industry, estimates Beijing will spend $300 billion over the next 20 years on civil and military aircraft engine programs.
Some sources said China had hired several foreign engineers and former air force personnel to work on engine development, although this could not be independently confirmed. The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment.
"In 20 to 30 years time, given the amount of work they have done and the effort they are putting into it, they should have a viable military engine," said Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor at Flightglobal, an industry publication.
ENGINE MAKERS MERGED
Chinese soldiers take part in Joint Sea-2014 naval exercise outside Shanghai on the East China Sea, …
China first manufactured warplanes under license from Russia in the 1950s. Its indigenous fighter jet program kicked into full swing in the 1980s.
The country's best warplane engine is the WS-10A Taihang, made by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, a subsidiary of China's biggest state-owned aerospace and defense company, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the sources said.
In development since the late 1980s, Chinese state media reports say more than 250 have been fitted to some fourth-generation J-10s and J-11s.
But the engines don't produce enough thrust, or power, and need frequent repairs, added the sources.
"They are trying to improve the Taihang, but reliability is a major problem," said one source.
AVIC did not respond to a request for comment while Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute could not be reached for comment.
In October, state media said three engine makers owned by AVIC would merge into one firm.
China will do more to integrate other engine-making firms in the coming years, said a Chinese source in the country's aerospace industry.
This would help coordination across civilian and military engine research and development and production, said the source.
The Defence Ministry declined to comment.
To cover gaps for now, China has fitted Russian engines on many of its warplanes.
In November, China held talks with Russian state-owned aircraft engine manufacturer United Engine Corp on the possible joint development and production of military engines at the same time it signed a deal to buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets, one of Moscow's most advanced warplanes.
The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment on the status of the discussions.
(Additional reporting by Megha Rajagopalan in Beijing; Editing by Dean Yates)
By Siva Govindasamy
SINGAPORE (Reuters) - China has built a potent military machine over the past 30 years but is struggling to develop advanced engines that would allow its warplanes to match Western fighters in combat, foreign and Chinese industry sources said.
The country's engine technology lags that of United Technologies unit Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and Rolls-Royce , said Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.
China's Defence Ministry, in a brief statement to Reuters, said there was a "definite gap" between Chinese military technology and some developed countries, adding Beijing would continue to strengthen its armed forces.
Western restrictions on arms exports to China prohibit the sale of Western engines for military use, forcing China to rely on homegrown designs or engines Russia has agreed to sell.
"Chinese engine-makers face a multitude of problems," said Michael Raska, assistant professor in the Military Transformations Programme at Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.
Among the issues, China's J-20 and J-31 stealth fighters cannot super-cruise, or fly at supersonic speeds like their closest rivals, Lockheed Martin's F-22 and F-35 stealth planes, without using after-burners, said two industry sources who follow Beijing's military programs closely.
A J-31 stealth fighter (background) of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force lands on a …
After-burners remove a warplane's stealthiness, a capability that allows them to escape radar detection.
Even the warplane engine that experts consider to be China's best has reliability issues, said the sources, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.
SOUTH CHINA SEA
A Chinese military expert, who has knowledge of the government's defense policy but who declined to be identified, said Chinese fighter jets could not perform as well as American warplanes because of inferior engine technology.
That puts China at a disadvantage should its warplanes be pitted against U.S. jet fighters or those from security ally Japan in Asia's disputed waters, the industry sources and security experts said.
Chinese warplanes are likely to come into increasing contact with U.S. fighters over the South China Sea in the years ahead after Beijing conducted its first test flights this month to one of three island runways it is building in the contested Spratly archipelago, security experts said.
A Chinese J-11 fighter jet is seen flying near a U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon about 215 km (135 miles) eas …
In any conflict, China would likely rely on sheer numbers of fighters as well as a growing arsenal of sophisticated missiles that can be launched from warships or land, they added.
To be sure, China has made warplane engine development a priority in recent years, sources said.
The Shanghai-based Galleon group, which provides consulting services to the aerospace industry, estimates Beijing will spend $300 billion over the next 20 years on civil and military aircraft engine programs.
Some sources said China had hired several foreign engineers and former air force personnel to work on engine development, although this could not be independently confirmed. The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment.
"In 20 to 30 years time, given the amount of work they have done and the effort they are putting into it, they should have a viable military engine," said Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor at Flightglobal, an industry publication.
ENGINE MAKERS MERGED
Chinese soldiers take part in Joint Sea-2014 naval exercise outside Shanghai on the East China Sea, …
China first manufactured warplanes under license from Russia in the 1950s. Its indigenous fighter jet program kicked into full swing in the 1980s.
The country's best warplane engine is the WS-10A Taihang, made by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, a subsidiary of China's biggest state-owned aerospace and defense company, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the sources said.
In development since the late 1980s, Chinese state media reports say more than 250 have been fitted to some fourth-generation J-10s and J-11s.
But the engines don't produce enough thrust, or power, and need frequent repairs, added the sources.
"They are trying to improve the Taihang, but reliability is a major problem," said one source.
AVIC did not respond to a request for comment while Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute could not be reached for comment.
In October, state media said three engine makers owned by AVIC would merge into one firm.
China will do more to integrate other engine-making firms in the coming years, said a Chinese source in the country's aerospace industry.
This would help coordination across civilian and military engine research and development and production, said the source.
The Defence Ministry declined to comment.
To cover gaps for now, China has fitted Russian engines on many of its warplanes.
In November, China held talks with Russian state-owned aircraft engine manufacturer United Engine Corp on the possible joint development and production of military engines at the same time it signed a deal to buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets, one of Moscow's most advanced warplanes.
The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment on the status of the discussions.
(Additional reporting by Megha Rajagopalan in Beijing; Editing by Dean Yates)