Chinese Engine Development

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
One question, I keep wondering is during the cold war between Soviet and US which started right after WWII, 1946, why those two hasn't bogged down by lack of engine development . They able to cranked out new jet engines for jet bomber like pipeline; For Soviet, the TU16 came out 1952, or M4 intercontinental Bomber 1956, they all got the engines needed at the time. Both US and Soviet didn't have to wait 10 yrs plus for an engine for their bomber or buy from third party.
Why such discrepancy? If Soviet and US can't come up with right engines at a tight pace, then there wouldn't be a sustained armed race. People said engine took a lot time to develop and industrial development but Soviet just came out of WWII with their industrial infrastructure destroyed and it able to entered arm race with US right after the war.

What's missing in China? If Russia didn't supply them the engines , PLAF would probably still grounded up to now.
 
Last edited:

vesicles

Colonel
One question, I keep wondering is during the cold war between Soviet and US which started right after WWII, 1946, why those two hasn't bogged down by lack of engine development . They able to cranked out new jet engines for jet bomber like pipeline; For Soviet, the TU16 came out 1952, or M4 intercontinental Bomber 1956, they all got the engines needed at the time. Both US and Soviet didn't have to wait 10 yrs plus for an engine for their bomber or buy from third party.
Why such discrepancy? If Soviet and US can't come up with right engines at a tight pace, then there wouldn't be a sustained armed race. People said engine took a lot time to develop and industrial development but Soviet just came out of WWII with their industrial infrastructure destroyed and it able to entered arm race with US right after the war.

What's missing in China? If Russia didn't supply them the engines , PLAF would probably still grounded up to now.

Both the US and the Soviets had but China didn't have was top-notch German experts. At the end of the WWII, the Germans were already at very advanced stage of jet engine tech. They already had Me 262 at operational level by the end of the WWII. Then after the war, these experts went to the US and the Soviets, advancing their development. NASA was almost entirely German scientists and engineers.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Both the US and the Soviets had but China didn't have was top-notch German experts. At the end of the WWII, the Germans were already at very advanced stage of jet engine tech. They already had Me 262 at operational level by the end of the WWII. Then after the war, these experts went to the US and the Soviets, advancing their development. NASA was almost entirely German scientists and engineers.

True, I also think the methodologies they deployed also made differences. During the arm race, once prototypes came out, they already lined them for production, they wasted no time for snail paced testing of what we seeing in China currently. First time products would not work so well, but I guess the German experts helped in that regard in making quick modifications and tunings.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
One question, I keep wondering is during the cold war between Soviet and US which started right after WWII, 1946, why those two hasn't bogged down by lack of engine development . They able to cranked out new jet engines for jet bomber like pipeline; For Soviet, the TU16 came out 1952, or M4 intercontinental Bomber 1956, they all got the engines needed at the time. Both US and Soviet didn't have to wait 10 yrs plus for an engine for their bomber or buy from third party.
Why such discrepancy? If Soviet and US can't come up with right engines at a tight pace, then there wouldn't be a sustained armed race. People said engine took a lot time to develop and industrial development but Soviet just came out of WWII with their industrial infrastructure destroyed and it able to entered arm race with US right after the war.

What's missing in China? If Russia didn't supply them the engines , PLAF would probably still grounded up to now.

Gas turbine industry doesn't exist in vacuum just like a good movie or play it need supporting cast . Both Soviet and US has well developed armament industry building fighter plane and bomber by thousand They developed sophisticated metallurgy and aero machinery industry. China has none of those The country was completely wreck

The other factor is lineage and diffusion of technology and people across nation boundary. Both US and Soviet benefited from pioneering work done by the Sir Francis Whittle and Hans Ohain.
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. Both GE and PW were given the design of Gas turbine by the British and was tasked with the production of the said turbine . But GE themselves had invented the turbo charge engine use in propeller plane to give it high output in high altitude Check this fascinating link
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The grand daddy of all the gas turbine engine is Nene engine developed by Rolls Royce
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Pratt Whitney was given the license to build the engine. Russia were given 25 sample of the engine which she later reverse engineer
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was given a licence to produce the Nene as the Pratt & Whitney J42, and it powered the
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.
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Twenty-five were given to the
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as a gesture of goodwill - with reservation to not use for military purposes - with the agreement of
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. The Soviets reneged on the deal, and
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the Nene to develop the
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, and a larger version, the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which soon appeared in various Soviet fighters including
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. It was briefly made under licence in Australia for use in the
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fighters. It was also built by
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in Canada for use in 656
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aircraft.


CHINA has none of those lineage and industrial capacity.Or help in the design of gas turbine She is lucky to survive the lean years of 1950. In other word She completely missed the long gestation period of gas turbine design Not too mention that during the 50's and 60's She is under economic and technological embargo like Iran now . So what China has achieved in such a short period of time is nothing but spectacular
She was forced to reinvent the wheel literally.So comparison between china and the west is totally out of place
 

MastanKhan

Junior Member
Gas turbine industry doesn't exist in vacuum just like a good movie or play it need supporting cast . Both Soviet and US has well developed armament industry building fighter plane and bomber by thousand They developed sophisticated metallurgy and aero machinery industry. China has none of those The country was completely wreck

The other factor is lineage and diffusion of technology and people across nation boundary. Both US and Soviet benefited from pioneering work done by the Sir Francis Whittle and Hans Ohain.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Both GE and PW were given the design of Gas turbine by the British and was tasked with the production of the said turbine . But GE themselves had invented the turbo charge engine use in propeller plane to give it high output in high altitude Check this fascinating link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The grand daddy of all the gas turbine engine is Nene engine developed by Rolls Royce
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Pratt Whitney was given the license to build the engine. Russia were given 25 sample of the engine which she later reverse engineer
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
was given a licence to produce the Nene as the Pratt & Whitney J42, and it powered the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Twenty-five were given to the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
as a gesture of goodwill - with reservation to not use for military purposes - with the agreement of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The Soviets reneged on the deal, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
the Nene to develop the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and a larger version, the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which soon appeared in various Soviet fighters including
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. It was briefly made under licence in Australia for use in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
fighters. It was also built by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Canada for use in 656
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
aircraft.


CHINA has none of those lineage and industrial capacity.Or help in the design of gas turbine She is lucky to survive the lean years of 1950. In other word She completely missed the long gestation period of gas turbine design Not too mention that during the 50's and 60's She is under economic and technological embargo like Iran now . So what China has achieved in such a short period of time is nothing but spectacular
She was forced to reinvent the wheel literally.So comparison between china and the west is totally out of place

Hi,

That was an excellent reply. People just simply don't understand how difficult it is to make an aircraft engine---specially for a fighter aircraft.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
One question, I keep wondering is during the cold war between Soviet and US which started right after WWII, 1946, why those two hasn't bogged down by lack of engine development . They able to cranked out new jet engines for jet bomber like pipeline; For Soviet, the TU16 came out 1952, or M4 intercontinental Bomber 1956, they all got the engines needed at the time. Both US and Soviet didn't have to wait 10 yrs plus for an engine for their bomber or buy from third party.
Why such discrepancy? If Soviet and US can't come up with right engines at a tight pace, then there wouldn't be a sustained armed race. People said engine took a lot time to develop and industrial development but Soviet just came out of WWII with their industrial infrastructure destroyed and it able to entered arm race with US right after the war.

What's missing in China? If Russia didn't supply them the engines , PLAF would probably still grounded up to now.

There is nothing magical about western engine technology and nothing unusual about China's struggles to catch up.

The key term here is "catch up".

The west developed their jet engine technology from the 1940s to this date.

That's nearly 80 years of continuously R&D. The PRC did not even exist back when the west were working on jet engines.

Since China established its jet engine industry, it was only able to invest a tiny tiny fraction of the money the west has put into R&D of engines (and related tech) until fairly recently.

The west has a big lead because they have been working far longer and investing far move into engines R&D then China. Its as simple as that. Since the west all collaborate on engines, we need to pretty much take the combined R&D budgets of the likes of the US, UK and EU to compare how much China has invested thus far (that's also largely why the Russians lag behind the west in terms of engines - far bigger R&D budget of the west)

You also have to remember that the western media has a massive anti-China slant, and often goes out of their way to belittle China and downplay its achievements while magnifying any shortcomings and faults, perceived or real.

The west often tries to belittle the WS10 by pointing out it is in the same class as the AL31 or F100/F110, which first came out in the 70s and 80s.

That is deliberately misleading, since the WS10 is superior by far to 1970s or 80s vintage AL31s or F100/F110s, and should be on par with the later versions of those engines currently still be produced today, and which were only first fielded in the 90s, 2000s or 2010, so Chinese engineers have actually made amazing process narrowing the lead from 70+ years to the 10-20 years now.

We also need to remember that we as outside observers only have a binary view of Chinese engine development.

As far as we can observe, we can only see if an engine is ready or now. So even if its 99.99% done, we can only count it as not ready right up until that final 0.01% work had been completed (in fact probably well after, since its only after engines are seen in flying, frontline planes that we can declare it operational).

So even that 10-20 year difference is likely to be a lot more than the reality, since we know from various leaked reports that China is working hard on the WS15, which currently only the US has fielded something of that class).

Thus it looks like Chinese engine development makes sudden bursts of progress (which feeds into the self-serving western suspicions about Chinese spying or copying), which in fact the real progress made is far more gradual, and it is only our ability to obverse it that is flawed.

We also need to remember that even the west has had plenty of headaches when they furst developed modern turbofan engines.

The F14 was plagued by its less than perfect engines in its early life, and early F16s crashed so often they earn the unenviable unofficial nickname of "lawndart" amongst pilots and ground crews.

Its amusing how western writers can have such selective memories sometimes.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Hi,

That was an excellent reply. People just simply don't understand how difficult it is to make an aircraft engine---specially for a fighter aircraft.

One key aspect of a good jet engine is reliability. Unlike the rocket engine, which only needs to function correctly for a (relatively) brief firing duration, jet engines must function properly under a variety of stresses and environments for several hundred hours before major overhauls can take place.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
One key aspect of a good jet engine is reliability. Unlike the rocket engine, which only needs to function correctly for a (relatively) brief firing duration, jet engines must function properly under a variety of stresses and environments for several hundred hours before major overhauls can take place.

I think they're both equally functionally important. Although a rocket engine may have to function once or so, but it has to travel at a much greater atmosphere height all through space and under much greater stress.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I think they're both equally functionally important. Although a rocket engine may have to function once or so, but it has to travel at a much greater atmosphere height all through space and under much greater stress.
Some of the biggest challenges in structural, mechanical, material engineering are always repeated use situations. They are also slower problems to resolve because the nature of testing them requires time and (surprise!) repeated use. Repeated use is of course still important for rockets, but mainly from a maintenance cost stand point than a performance stand point, unlike with jet engines.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Some of the biggest challenges in structural, mechanical, material engineering are always repeated use situations. They are also slower problems to resolve because the nature of testing them requires time and (surprise!) repeated use. Repeated use is of course still important for rockets, but mainly from a maintenance cost stand point than a performance stand point, unlike with jet engines.

But if a rocket engine fails, you basically have to start over and build another one and do some more testing before launching it again. Jet engine on the other hand can be replaceable with a lot less costly than a rocket engine.
 
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