Chinese Engine Development

Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Blackstone said:
Given current Chinese arms sales model, it's probable WS-13 engines would be cheaper and perform a bit better too. Time will tell, I'm not at all convinced we'll see WS-13 anytime soon.
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WS-13 will cost more once it comes out to make up for the R&D costs for while till it gets to economy of scale productions. Plus many countries will lower military budget can only afford Russian built engines over Western or China's. The Chinese engine program are in definitely active and well budgeted. It's far more advanced in it's overall program than in any other Asian countries.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Zahid said:
I find the above a bit confusing:

2. What is the point of developing WS-13, when Chinese have Russian commitment for 500 engines? If 275 JF-17 along with foreseeable exports can be catered with this number, then why bother with WS-13 at all?
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Firstly, you got the cost to consider. Not just the engines, but spare parts and servicing throughout the life of the fleet, which will be quite considerable, and a meaningful saving possible with a domestic engine.

In addition, with the service life of Russian engines, you will probably need a lot more than 500 engines just for your fleet of 250 planes for their planned service life. Again, that adds more costs.

Secondly, you have operational security to consider. The Russians may be less prone to use sanctions, but its not outside the realm of possibility.

Thirdly, the WS13 won't be just for the JF17, all manner of other aircraft and projects would use or at least benefit from it, ranging from drones all the way to maybe the J31.

3. I think that 500 engines may continue to serve JF-17 Block-1 & Block-2 fleet, plus any exports requiring / mandating RD-93 variants. May be JF-17 Block-3, and future J-31 requirements would be satisfied via WS-13. I can not be sure about this though. Can anyone make a better guess?
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As Deino already mentioned, the 500 engines were an option, I haven't heard anything about it being exercised.

I am guessing that the option is more for insurance in case of delays with the WS13, and/or if there is a massive foreign order for JF17s that cannot wait for the WS13 to be ready before delivery is due.

4. With seeming secrecy surrounding WS-13 program, one would think that it is some sort of a surprise waiting to happen. Feels unreal.
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All Chinese ongoing military projects are highly secret, you just have more leaks with high profile projects because there is so much more interest, meaning any hint of clue is chased down and followed up on.

Most of those turn out to be nothing, and often result in wild rumours, but every now and again, someone unearths a gem form seemingly unrelated or obscure sources the censors missed.

The WS13 isn't getting much exposure because the fan community isn't looking at it anywhere as closely as other, more high profile projects, so a lot of the little gems that gets spotted which gives insight into things like the WS15, 055, hypersonic gliders etc are simply not picked up on for the WS13.
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Zahid

Zahid

Junior Member
Deino said:
As far as I know these 500 engines are not already ordered but more a letter of intent to purchase ... or am I wrong !

As such an own engines makes sense ...
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As far as I know, RD-93 MA is being developed specifically for JF-17. Such an investment would likely not be done only upon a letter of intent. Lack of a follow-up order would constitute financial loss to Klimov.

When it comes to WS-13, nothing seems to be sure or precise.
 
Zahid

Zahid

Junior Member

Thanks @plawolf for solid reply. Much appreciated.

It is known that PAF is satisfied with current RD-93.

J-31 project trajectory would determine what happens with WS-13, IMO. Since it is generally considered highly probable that PAF would opt for it as higher end stealth option, commonality of engine with JF-17 would matter a great deal.
 
H

hlcc

Junior Member
Zahid said:
As far as I know, RD-93 MA is being developed specifically for JF-17. Such an investment would likely not be done only upon a letter of intent. Lack of a follow-up order would constitute financial loss to Klimov.

When it comes to WS-13, nothing seems to be sure or precise.
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I doubt the RD-93MA will take up too much time & effort from Klimov in addition to what they are already doing with RD-33Mk and RD-33MKM.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This is an excellent article for those of you who keep mocking the slow progress of WS10 Considering that it is relatively young engine developed by country that only recently has the mean and industrial wherewithal , skill to develop aero engine.Not to mention the strict and severe technological embargo that is imposed on her. So a little perspective is in order . After all the firs production engine is only 5 years old

It take Pratt and Whitney 30 years with 10 billion dollar of budget to developed cutting edge Turbofan. even though Pratt and Whitney has been building engine since the end of WWII

Pratt & Whitney’s new PurePower Geared Turbofan aircraft engines are impressive beasts. Scheduled to enter commercial service before the end of the year, they burn 16 percent less fuel than today’s best jet engines, Pratt says. They pollute less. They have fewer parts, which increases reliability. And they create up to 75 percent less noise on the ground, enabling carriers to pay lower noise fees and travel over some residential areas that are no-fly zones for regular planes. Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, Irkut, and Mitsubishi have certified the engines for use on their narrowbody craft. JetBlue, Lufthansa, Air New Zealand, Malaysia’s Flymojo, and Japan Airlines are among the engine’s 70 buyers in more than 30 countries.

To people outside the aircraft business, what may be most remarkable about the engines is that they took almost 30 years to develop. That’s about 15 times as long as the gestation period of an elephant and unimaginably longer than it takes to pop out a smartphone app. Could Pratt have gotten the hardware out faster? Probably. But industrial innovation on the scale of a commercial jet engine is inevitably and invariably a slog—one part inspiration to 99 parts perspiration.

In Pratt’s case, it required the cooperation of hundreds of engineers across the company, a $10 billion investment commitment from
Read the rest from this link
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tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
nobody said what China is doing is not impressive. What we are saying is that it's extremely complex and difficult process, so the problems we see/hear about WS-10 are expected and part of developing a modern turbofan engine. It would be a miracle if there is no problem found during testing. And compared to something that has been around a long time like AL-31, it's entirely reasonable to accept that WS-10 will be less reliable the first few years.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
The way I understand the article is that there is simply a new engine in development for the JF-17 and has finished lab testing and is now flight testing. That statement just came in june 15 of this year. Just 4 months ago! So the flight testing program hasn't been that long. Although from the statement we don't know when the flight testing began. So it maybe a couple more years before we see this engine entering production and induction. In the meantime the JF-17 and the new J-31 prototypes will be flying with the RD-93.

Its probably not going to take as long as the WS-10 because this program will benefit from the experience of the WS-10. But to sort out all of the design and production issues will still take years.
 
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