Chinese Engine Development

b787

b787

Captain
AssassinsMace said:
I believe I already inferred that. But again China is a different case because people like Fisher who wrote that article doesn't want China to successfully develop engines at all. So the partnership is like dangling bait in a bait and switch game. And let's not forget that the commercial viability of Chinese engines is as irrelevant since the Chinese market alone will make it commercially viable. Just like China's domestic airliners. Don't need Western customers but since China is the largest customer for new airliners in the world, they'll definitely feel it since China won't be buying theirs. Hence such "partnerships" are needed, not for China, but for others in order to survive.
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In my view China will need Russia to partner in common jet engine programs, China and Russia will need to trust each other and help beneficially each other, in the same way the EU members states and the US do when they built engines, otherwise China will remain behind, the WS-10 is not competitive for what the modern engines in Russia, the USA and Europe can do.
Just to mentions the WS-10 is not competitive with the latest Al-31s variants and 117 engines, much less competitive with the F119 not even competitive with the F-100-PW-129

China has no chances to succeed in commercial jet engines, it is pretty obvious the J-31 was powered with two RD-93s because they lack an engine like the F-135, and it is obvious they lack an engine like the EJ-200.

Can china make a A-380 equivalent? the reality is not likely they will need to import Trent engines from England, an A-350 or a B-787? it will be the same they can not, they will need GEnxs engines from GE.

So the only possible way is partnership, as Europe and the US do, and that only leaves Russia, and to a much lesser extend India or Brazil.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
You guys are reading what you want to read. I said from the beginning partnerships can be useful. But this is China and Richard Fisher isn't trying to find a way for China to partner-up with anyone. So it's disingenuous. Does the US need a partner? The idea that China needs a partner is an attempt that instill China can't do it alone and should not bother. Just like they said it takes decades to master operating and building aircraft carriers, so China shouldn't bother. Are they looking out for the best interests of China or they just don't want China building aircraft carriers because that would be considered competition? This reminds me of the former member, Mig-29, arguing how inferior China was needing help (aka partnering with Russia in this case) in order to produce engines. But then argued that Mexico was going to make superior engines (in the future) because of partnering with already established Western engine makers. So how is China inferior for needing help but Mexico is not when it needs help? The article was written by Richard Fisher. So the idea that he's giving sound advice to help China is laughable and shouldn't be heeded.
 
b787

b787

Captain
AssassinsMace said:
The article was written by Richard Fisher. So the idea that he's giving sound advice to help China is laughable and shouldn't be heeded.
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Partnership is the only way for China, and i can affirm you China will remain behind as longs as it tries alone.

England for example has the Airbus and Rolls Royce company to keep its aviation industry, but without it, it will be already dead, they needed partnerships in military programs to remain alive in example Tornado, Alphajet, Sepecat Jaguar, Eurofighter, Concorde.

France has the same problem and Germany is the same, going alone is expensive and means you have to do more research this implies it takes more time.

By the time China has an engine like the 117 powering PAKFA or Su-35, Russia will go beyond to the new engine type 30, the US will accumulate 2 decades of F-135 technological experience.

To put an example the Y-20 uses old engines while the Russians only needed to re-engine the Il-76 and change the wing and they got a jet capable to compete with Y-20 with a minimum of re-engineering the old Il-76.

I am sure China will remain behind in engine technology as long as it does not work in partnerships, and as long as China faces the US over the China sea i see no future for their partnerships with the west, the BRICS will then be their only option but in the BRICS club only Russia has the technology to really be transferred to China.

By the time China catches with current western technology, the west will simply have moved on to a higher level and more sophisticated technology, the West has the resources to remain at least 2 decades ahead of China in engine technology, that is a fact that will remain a reality because the West controls the airline jet engine market and technology and that will not be challenged unless the right connections and partnerships are made.
 
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AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
China doesn't have that luxury to choose a partner. Again does the US need to partner with anyone? China has shown it doesn't have to be the best to rival. No different with engines. If one doesn't build the best engine, don't bother? Then why are there more than one engine maker in the world? Like I pointed out with the EmDrive. Did China need to partner with anyone? It was scoffed at by the mainstream and China didn't let that affect them to build one to see if it worked. So who's the one that's hindered by narrow mindsets? You have to wonder how are Chinese hypersonic tests performing better than US tests? Where's China's partner to do that?
 
rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
My take on this issue. Currently, lets face it, China's engines are one of the shortfall of the Chinese aerospace industry, they can build top of the line radar, avionic suits and airframe... but engine still lagged behind as compared to some of the more well known manufacturers and country. However, to say that the Chinese is inferior or will be behind is not really the case. The Chinese had the resources nowadays, unlike 20 years ago and currently they really are not that hot or deep in trouble that they needed to rush time to come up with something incredible. Do note that the Chinese only started this game pretty late as compared to other more established industry players, but they are getting there.

Now, if they could partner with someone (really sincere on the joint development) of course it will be for the best, as it will definitely speed up the R&D processes... but by partnering, we don't mean going into a partnership whereby the Chinese dump money to let the other party (for example, Russia) do their research and present them with a final product... by partnering, I mean, joint development whereby key and important technical aspect is shared between both parties so that the Chinese can manufactured those products themselves.

If without this partnership... well... it is not the end of the world, the Chinese's currently fleet of aircraft can still fly without that much of incident. They still have the time to develope engines and they have the resources (in term of talents, monies, materials, etc) so it is no biggie.

And... by the way... do you really need the best engines around? I always have the impression that as long as the engines is suitable, would not cause a lost of power, lasting and reliable, and thats enough. Do you really need one with the longest lifespan, greatest thrust, etc to compete in the world market?
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
b787 said:
I am sure China will remain behind in engine technology as long as it does not work in partnership.

By the time China catches with current western technology, the west will simply have moved on to a higher level and more sophisticated technology, the West has the resources to remain at least 2 decades ahead of China in engine technology, that is a fact that will remain a reality because the West controls the airline jet engine market and technology and that will not be challenged unless the right connections and partnerships are made.
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If that's true than why are so many Western Chinese engine watchers gets so nervous about it to put up such article in the first place? Are they looking into the interests of China or trying to down play it? It's the program that counts. China has the resources and the engineers and scientists to do it all by themselves and to sustain such a program. Meanwhile the other western engine companies can't say that because there is always a chance that a Chinese researchers are involved in it (no this is not a race superior comparison thing). Bottom line is only the naysayers and haters don't want to see China progress at all.
 
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Pmichael

Junior Member
The infamous "China needs at least 20 years to catch up" phrase (obviously based on nothing).

One important part many people forget that just China's large domestic market gives them the edge over most other countries which aren't the USA or the European Zone.
 
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weig2000

Captain
rhino123 said:
My take on this issue. Currently, lets face it, China's engines are one of the shortfall of the Chinese aerospace industry, they can build top of the line radar, avionic suits and airframe... but engine still lagged behind as compared to some of the more well known manufacturers and country. However, to say that the Chinese is inferior or will be behind is not really the case. The Chinese had the resources nowadays, unlike 20 years ago and currently they really are not that hot or deep in trouble that they needed to rush time to come up with something incredible. Do note that the Chinese only started this game pretty late as compared to other more established industry players, but they are getting there.

Now, if they could partner with someone (really sincere on the joint development) of course it will be for the best, as it will definitely speed up the R&D processes... but by partnering, we don't mean going into a partnership whereby the Chinese dump money to let the other party (for example, Russia) do their research and present them with a final product... by partnering, I mean, joint development whereby key and important technical aspect is shared between both parties so that the Chinese can manufactured those products themselves.

If without this partnership... well... it is not the end of the world, the Chinese's currently fleet of aircraft can still fly without that much of incident. They still have the time to develope engines and they have the resources (in term of talents, monies, materials, etc) so it is no biggie.

And... by the way... do you really need the best engines around? I always have the impression that as long as the engines is suitable, would not cause a lost of power, lasting and reliable, and thats enough. Do you really need one with the longest lifespan, greatest thrust, etc to compete in the world market?
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I think you said it well. China is not against partnership, not at all. But the partnership has to make sense for China, as you described. China does not want to play an ... India, when it comes to partnership.

Actually, even if China partners with somebody, it usually still has its own indigenous development program in parallel, which have served China well. The more prominent examples include the KJ-2000 project with Israel, the Z-10 project with Canadian PW engine.
 
b787

b787

Captain
Equation said:
If that's true than why are so many Western Chinese engine watchers gets so nervous about it to put up such article in the first place? Are they looking into the interests of China or trying to down play it? It's the program that counts. China has the resources and the engineers and scientists to do it all by themselves and to sustain such a program. Meanwhile the other western engine companies can't say that because there is always a chance that a Chinese researchers are involved in it (no this is not a race superior comparison thing). Bottom line is only the naysayers and haters don't want to see China progress at all.
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i do not want to stir emotions, i only can say to you at this moment the west is not afraid of China`s engine development at all, Commercially, China does not power 90% of all the airliners flying in the world.

Militarily speaking the west has engines like the EJ-200 and M88 that have no Chinese equivalent or engines like F-119 and F-135 which are at least two decades ahead of China.

In terms of budget, the western firms have the monies and brain power to remain leaders for at least two decades more.
But in order to catch up China will need either develop new technologies that leap frog their technology ahead of the West like Germany did in WWII with jet propulsion or copy the best current western engine like the US and Russia did with the British and German WWII engines.

Either case means China must have technological levels close to what the West have, but for what they have, i can only say at this moment it is more a dream or aspiration than a reality, China is behind the West in jet engine technology and the west will fight back and will invest money to keep that lead, everything is about money.
 
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gullible

Junior Member
If nobody wants to partnership with china it may be a blessing in disguise..
china will work even harder in order to live another day...u know the characters of China, dont you?

ps...who in the world would want to share critical tech for nothing?
 
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