MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Okay let us wait, that is the best, case closed for me
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
No ... I instantly beg YOU to learn !! It is the same way we have so many - some more or less harsh discussions - and ever and ever again the same issue. You don't discuss by showing reliable sources, You only post pages of pages of "links" that fit Your theory. Some f these are fine but others not and the problem is that I never heard from You "YES, You are correct, I made a mistake, Yor sourse is more reliable and mine is wrong / not as reliable!" ... these are words You don't seem to be able to speak.
All what happens - and now again - You tell us to wait, time will tell, everyone has the right for his own opinion ... You avoid any conclusion that don't fits Your opinion, and that's exactly what it is in most cases: YOUR opinion.
Sorry to say so, but You are the first to call for a moderator whenever You feel "oppressed" by anyone here, You are the one who questions others reliability or credibility ... on the other side I can more than understand the other guys, since that's not the way to discuss here (honestly it reminds me more on that more and more stupid fan-boy blah-blah posted at Keymags), since Your reliability, Your credibility to be taken seriously is no ZERO !
Deino
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Deino.
See one thing important, we are people from different cultures and countries, some of the Chinese here are not even living in China, they are Chinese ethnically but citizens of one or two countries.
In my culture, apologies are not wrong, but freedom is very important, we when we are more or less educated, we like to apologize sincerely, when we really think we are wrong.
I think for me the case is done simply because until more information comes up we will know what Masalov and Xu did agree or talk
If Tphuang is right, then perhaps nothing will happen, WS-15 will come up and no Russian engine will power J-20, that is fine with me, perhaps as he says Al-31FN were purchased.
But if nothing of that happens or if Russia cooperates with China in aero engine design as Masalov said i ask you why i have to apologize?
Consider that in forum people express opinions, and many links are not even official, so most of what we talk here are opinions, some are perhaps more popular others more right and accurate perhaps.
But most of what we are doing is discussing the news, we are not news makers i can not really know what Xu and Masalov did indeed talk about.
So the only thing i can do is opine, you might not like my opinion but in life to grow we have to accept other`s opinions unless a very very accurate source is given, then the person yes should give an apology, but honestly i do not think here my opinions are wrong or right since time only will tell so the best is wait an see.
This is for me case closed.
vesicles
Colonel
I am sorry, but what does freedom have anything to do with apologies? When you said "In my culture... freedom is very important", do you mean in some other culture, freedom is not important? Give me one example where people of a different culture prefer to be enslaved. I simply don't understand why people would always want to bring up the "freedom" card when they cannot win an argument when it is plainly obvious that the argument has absolutely nothing to do with freedom. are you implying that your culture is superior than others, thus you must be smarter than others and thus you must be right all the time and thus others cannot question your judgement?
It takes a MAN to admit he is wrong. This is an American saying. No matter what culture it is, it is a commonly admired trait in ALL cultures to be able to admit one is wrong. It shows character and even more importantly it show confidence. It takes a confident person to be able to openly acknowledge weakness.
So what does nationality or Chinese living abroad have anything to do with apologies? are you implying that Chinese living abroad have a different level of confidence than the native Chinese, thus causing them to have more/less tendency to apologize? Totally confused...
vesicles
Colonel
Dear MIG-29,
I have noticed that in many many post of yours, you always mention your cultural background. The intent of the statements clearly is to demonstrate your uniqueness because of your cultural background. And the wording clearly implies that you believe that you occupy the moral high ground because of your cultural background. While there is nothing wrong of being proud of one's own culture, it is, however, unacceptable to look down on others' cultures. While none of your opponents in these arguments has mentioned anything about your culture, you seems to have the tendency to keep propping up your own culture and at the same time attacking other cultures. These statements imply that you believe your culture is superior than others. I would suggest to leave the reference of your culture out of any argument. Having a superior culture does not give you any advantage in these discussions and certainly does not make you a better/worse person. Let alone that no culture is more superior than others.
And believe it or not, all the cultures on this planet are very similar. While your culture teaches you to be humble, no culture in the world teaches its people to be arrogant and stubborn. You may believe your culture gives you a unique advantage over others. However, a better understanding of world history will tell you that ALL cultures in the world teach their people to do exactly the same. There is absolutely nothing unique about your culture, or any one particular culture. We share 99.8% DNA and we are the same, no matter if we are Americans, Africans, Europeans or Asians. And that determines that we also think in similar way, thus giving us similar cultures.
Every culture has ups and downs, peaks and valleys. Because cultures do not overlap, often times peak of one culture coincides with the valley of another, giving one the impression of having a superior/inferior culture. That is very unfortunate.
I have noticed that in many many post of yours, you always mention your cultural background. The intent of the statements clearly is to demonstrate your uniqueness because of your cultural background. And the wording clearly implies that you believe that you occupy the moral high ground because of your cultural background. While there is nothing wrong of being proud of one's own culture, it is, however, unacceptable to look down on others' cultures. While none of your opponents in these arguments has mentioned anything about your culture, you seems to have the tendency to keep propping up your own culture and at the same time attacking other cultures. These statements imply that you believe your culture is superior than others. I would suggest to leave the reference of your culture out of any argument. Having a superior culture does not give you any advantage in these discussions and certainly does not make you a better/worse person. Let alone that no culture is more superior than others.
And believe it or not, all the cultures on this planet are very similar. While your culture teaches you to be humble, no culture in the world teaches its people to be arrogant and stubborn. You may believe your culture gives you a unique advantage over others. However, a better understanding of world history will tell you that ALL cultures in the world teach their people to do exactly the same. There is absolutely nothing unique about your culture, or any one particular culture. We share 99.8% DNA and we are the same, no matter if we are Americans, Africans, Europeans or Asians. And that determines that we also think in similar way, thus giving us similar cultures.
Every culture has ups and downs, peaks and valleys. Because cultures do not overlap, often times peak of one culture coincides with the valley of another, giving one the impression of having a superior/inferior culture. That is very unfortunate.
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Do not say things i never said, we in this forum are people with different nationalities, not all are Chinese or Chinese living in foreign countries, we have a very great variety of people, we are a cosmopolitan group
However you can not imply we all have the same culture and therefore the same concepts and ways of react.
What i said to Deino is i have a different concept of when to apologize, he is asking me to apologize and saying he is right i am wrong i have to apologize.
I simply said to him this is not a way we will take in most of Latin america a polite way, specially in a country like Mexico where authority has a very bad concept if it is not accompanied by freedom, since Mexico is a very liberal country where the concept of Democracy is mixed with the chaos of a semi-anarchist society.
If i have to apologize in this situation i asked prove me that i am wrong, since i know no one was witness of what Xu and Masalov talked then i do not need to apologize.
But he is not Mexican there fore is possible he does not know in that regard what is my cultural background, he is saying because i have an different opinion that the rest of everybody here therefore i am wrong therefore i have to apologize but not, Thuang has the right to his opinion like i have mine right until we know what did really happen.
When we know if J-20 comes up with WS-15s or comes with an engine Russia has help or even Russian engine then we can say who has to apologize to who.
This is not being arrogant is simply my right to be honest no one here was a witness if Xu bought Al-31FNs or Al-31F-M2s or even if they talked Russian cooperation in WS-15 or other engines, or it was just a regular visit.
That is my whole point
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
I never said i am superior, or my culture is superior, however in each culture apologize has not the same meanings, in that regard you are wrong, in some cultures an apology can mean an insult a sign of weakness, in others they teach you to apologize to authority regardless they are right or wrong, in others an apology is a sign of humbleness.
In Mexico authority is not a reason to apologize, ranking is not a reason to apologize, why? because our president is critized as an incompetent guy, most Mexicans mistrust authority, considere authority does not give rights to say i am right.
Not because Thuang is a moderator means his opinion is better than mine or the same Deino.
If they want in this case to prove they are right they have to wait to know if Xu only visited Salut for political reasons, or for Al-31FNs.
Saying my sources are wrong i know better in this does not prove their point, since they were not with Xu and Masalov.
My concept of Freedom stems that as long as they are saying opinions i have my freedom to express as moderators they can ask me to cut it up finish the argument as Thuang asked me, and wait that is fine with me but my freedom stems in my right to my opinion.
And i never will relinquish that right
Again and again the same way to avoid a true discussion, avoid a simply "I was wrong" ... but You are correct, it is indeed not arrogant, it is simply stubborn !
I did not demand You to apologies in the meaning "I'm correct and You were wrong", I said simply You should - to be taken seriously - to admit that an Indian fanboy site and another Taiwanese site is not a "source" in regard to such specific things related to Chinese aviation matters even more when there are different "sources" proving or denying the one or the other standpoint.
The funny thing is we might indeed see the J-20 powered by the Russian AL-31FN-M123 or so, but surely not due to Your sources.
But I will keep it simple and even more since You got more than one warning I finally quote Your own statement (in grammatically correct form) and You no longer need to do anything:
Deino
Engineer
Major
The issue here isn't about rights to express opinion. Certain individual got his chance to claim Chinese were shopping for Russian engines already, so he already exercised his rights of expression. This issue is this individual cannot accept opinions contrary to his. Worse, this individual has often shown to lack support for his claims, and sometime shown to contradict facts altogether. What this individual shows is an insistent of preaching religiously, which has led him to be banned from multiple forums already.
I for one, am glad that his ass is gone from our forums as well.
Anyway, here are some diagrams I have meant to post for some time. The first is a general time line of various aero-engines in China. From bottom to top, the rows can loosely be interpreted as near-term goals, medium-term goals, and long-term goals. If WS** corresponds to WS-15, then testing should start by 2014. Reliability testing should start from 2016.
The second diagram is similar to the first, except things are arranged into columns now. From left to right are near-term goals, medium-term goals, and long-term goals. Again, these are loose interpretation. Here, we actually see WS-15 in the category of near-term goals.
The third diagram has explanation of near-term, medium-term, and long-term goals. We also see that China is undertaking 22 jet engine projects simultaneously, while the US has 30 jet engine projects. Of the Chinese projects, 14 of them are in [engineering] development, 4 are core engines undergoing development, and the remaining 4 are in preliminary research phase.
Finally, see see a time line of a typical aero-engine project. From concept to deployment, it typically takes 30 years to complete. So before people use the lack of news on WS-15 to argue that WS-15 project is in trouble, they need to realize things must take their natural course even when everything is working according to plans.
Tags: China; Chinese aero-engine projects; WS-10; WS-15; development time lines; long-term goals; medium-term goals; near-term goals; official presentation slides;
I for one, am glad that his ass is gone from our forums as well.
Anyway, here are some diagrams I have meant to post for some time. The first is a general time line of various aero-engines in China. From bottom to top, the rows can loosely be interpreted as near-term goals, medium-term goals, and long-term goals. If WS** corresponds to WS-15, then testing should start by 2014. Reliability testing should start from 2016.
The second diagram is similar to the first, except things are arranged into columns now. From left to right are near-term goals, medium-term goals, and long-term goals. Again, these are loose interpretation. Here, we actually see WS-15 in the category of near-term goals.
The third diagram has explanation of near-term, medium-term, and long-term goals. We also see that China is undertaking 22 jet engine projects simultaneously, while the US has 30 jet engine projects. Of the Chinese projects, 14 of them are in [engineering] development, 4 are core engines undergoing development, and the remaining 4 are in preliminary research phase.
Finally, see see a time line of a typical aero-engine project. From concept to deployment, it typically takes 30 years to complete. So before people use the lack of news on WS-15 to argue that WS-15 project is in trouble, they need to realize things must take their natural course even when everything is working according to plans.
Tags: China; Chinese aero-engine projects; WS-10; WS-15; development time lines; long-term goals; medium-term goals; near-term goals; official presentation slides;
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