Chinese Engine Development

Quickie

Colonel
new engine? how old it really is?




None of the reasons you gave are credible. The fact that the best of the fighter jets pilots only use AL-31 is clearly indicative of something. Not using WS-10A in those exercices doesnt make sense unless the plane using it would be in a disadvantage, and they go there to give their best and push to the limit, not to be armstrung by the engine.

The best and most experienced of the pilots are also more likely to be flying the flankers with the AL-31 engines since that's the jet engines the older and more experienced flanker regiments started with.

As to the engine spooling speed, people just assume it's still a problem. There's a video footage a while back showing the faster spooling of a J-10's WS-10A engine compare to the engines of the J-20 and JF-17. Not sure someone was intentionally showing this or it was just some random footage that just happened to show this, notwithstanding the possibility that it just happened the J-10 pilot had an urgency to have a quick takeoff.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
The best and most experienced of the pilots are also more likely to be flying the flankers with the AL-31 engines since that's the jet engines the older and more experienced flanker regiments started with.

As to the engine spooling speed, people just assume it's still a problem. There's a video footage a while back showing the faster spooling of a J-10's WS-10A engine compare to the engines of the J-20 and JF-17. Not sure someone was intentionally showing this or it was just some random footage that just happened to show this, notwithstanding the possibility that it just happened the J-10 pilot had an urgency to have a quick takeoff.

Need to emphasize that my guess was that the spooling problem, if there is one, probably occurs inconsistently. It could be FADEC related.
 

kroko

Senior Member
As i say before there is myriad reason why they didn't use WS10A and they don't need to explain it to you.

Yet they have no problem fitting J15 and J10B with AL-31 engine .So much for for that false theory.

Why are you getting defensive? i didnt say they need to explain to me or anyone else. And like i said before, none of the reasons you said are really credible.

J-10B is a chinese plane, not russian. No problem in fitting Al-31 to it. J-15 is using it. But that could reflect a formal agreement with russia that the J-15 prototypes could use it, due to the need of AL-31 reliability. Or perhabs not, and russia just let china use it in J-15 because few will be built (lets face it, how many carriers will china build in the next 10 years?) and russia will lose little with it. They can always give something in return. This is speculation of course, but it can fit with what we know so far.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Need to emphasize that my guess was that the spooling problem, if there is one, probably occurs inconsistently. It could be FADEC related.

A problem that happens inconsistently is always related to some kind of fault in the hardware. A problem in the design will usually show itself consistently when under the same conditions, at least for designs that are done with good tolerance. :D
 

tphuang

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I never heard that participation in drill is the benchmark of jet Engine performance. There are myriad of reason why they don't use J11B with WS 10a in air drill. It could be anything from conservatism to familiarity of the test pilot with J11A or It could be that only J11A regiments participate in the drill. It is completely unrelated to the performance of WS 10A engine period

the reason is because there are still issues with the engine and the performance with it is simply not as good as AL-31F equipped J-11Bs. J-11B with AL-31F have participated two years in a row now. If J-11B with WS-10A can pariticpate and show good performance flying maneuvers, there is no reason for them not to participate.

new engine? how old it really is?
well certification probably happened in 2008, but it has really only been equipping J-11Bs in mass numbers since 2010. They produced a bunch before that, but I think there were probably quality issues, because even in late 2009, we saw many J-11Bs parked outside SAC with no engines. So, it's been 3 years of sorting out issues with the engine. I think it's quite reasonable to have a period with a new engine like this to


Yet they have no problem fitting J15 and J10B with AL-31 engine .So much for for that false theory.Even if China want to use AL31 engine what is the Russian going to do withhold the spare part.?

Well No problem because China can manufacture almost every component or part of Al31 engine in Sichuan overhaul plant that basically can duplicate any AL-31 engine or even extend the MTBO of AL31 engine
just because they can duplicate almost the entire AL-31 engine, that doesn't mean WS-10A is any good.

Another thing J 11B is still being produced and more advanced version Like J116 also used WS 10A That should tell the world that the trust the engine performance
That means they reached a level where it can enter service, but it still has a long way to go in sorting out problems. Remember, this is China's first major turbofan project. And also Shenyang Liming is a joke when it comes to production capabilities.
China did make modification on the AL 31 engine to extend the MTBR from 900 hr to 1500 hr. Here is the article by Reuben Johnson and Photo of the facility from pakistan defense forum
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ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly


China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Kiev

Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine

The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".

yeah about this one, What AVIC1 did here is nothing special. They are spending more money in the overhaul process and also tuning the engine in practice to lower power in order to give longer service life. Nothing the Russians can't do themselves to raise service life.

The WS-10A itself was certified around 2008, if I'm not mistaken.


Yes, that must be it! China must depend on an inferior product because Russia won't sell them the superior...wait no. Russia just sold 200 AL-31s to China two years ago. People need to check their fact patterns.

China isn't equipping their planes with the WS-10A because they have no other options. They're equipping their planes with the WS-10A because it's a viable engine that they intend to be their mainstay. If what tphuang says is right it enforces my presumption that they're working out the kinks through mass adoption and regular use, something all products go through eventually.
Those AL-31s were for the purpose of replacement with the su-30s and J-11As in service with PLAAF. Even SAC had the choice, they would go with all AL-31F. But of course, for the overall development of Chinese aviation industry, you have to develop your own high perfomring turbofan engine, so that's why you have to push through the growing pains in the beginning stages of a new engine. I think they already learnt a lot from WS-10A production that they will apply to WS-15 and other projects, so hopefully those won't have the same level of problems.

Again, a lot of blame here goes to Shenyang Liming and the rest of this goes to SAERI and however developed it. There were problems in both the design and production process, but they are working on improving it. There is no shame in a new engine not being as reliable as something that's been around since early 80s. Those AL-31Fs had horrible service life when they first came out, but they are obviously much better now.
 

Franklin

Captain
To recap the situation with the WS-10 engines. The engine is in serial production since 2010 and there are now 5 regiments of J-11B flying with them. That's in total at least 240 engines that have been produced in the past 3 years or about 80 a year. But the engine is still not reliable enough for single engine planes (J-10/J-10B) or for navalized planes (J-15). And there are also performence issue's since non of the WS-10 equipped J-11B's has participated in any high profile exercises. China has so far produced a engine that's just usable for the air force. So its still work in progress.

PS does anyone know how many nations can actually produce a high performing turbofan Engine ? I know at least four: US, UK, France and Russia.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
No. Performance as in what the engine can do. The ws-10 having better service life has absolutely nothing to do with how the engine performs in combat.

The point is I trust what information I encounter based on my own judgement, as everyone else in this forum has to. You can believe what you want but the original point is that you should provide evidence to back your own claims if you want to look credible demanding evidence from others.

Isn't in combat you want your engine to be reliable and long lasting? How do you know for certain how WS-10 and AL-31 performs in combat if there wasn't any combat lately at all? All you naysayers can say whatever you want, but the facts are that hundreds of PLAAF fighters are equipped with WS-10 are proof enough for me. And than you come up with some silly "issues" after reading some one so and so "expert" came up with an excuse about the problems that China has with it's own engine? Gee wiz don't you think it's a waste of money for PLAAF to put non-reliable engines onto planes? They don't have to show the world any combat footage how their WS-10 engines are performing because they're not on a marketing campaign to sell them. It's for domestic use for now, until someone wants to buy it.
 

tphuang

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To recap the situation with the WS-10 engines. The engine is in serial production since 2010 and there are now 5 regiments of J-11B flying with them. That's in total at least 240 engines that have been produced in the past 3 years or about 80 a year. But the engine is still not reliable enough for single engine planes (J-10/J-10B) or for navalized planes (J-15). And there are also performence issue's since non of the WS-10 equipped J-11B's has participated in any high profile exercises. China has so far produced a engine that's just usable for the air force. So its still work in progress.

PS does anyone know how many nations can actually produce a high performing turbofan Engine ? I know at least four: US, UK, France and Russia.

how did we get 5 regiments of J-11B flying them? The first J-11B regiment is AL-31F. And I'm not even sure at this point if the 4 WS-10A J-11B regiments are all fully formed yet.

Also, they need to produce spares and engines to be used in testing and also replacements. There are also engines produced before 2010 which may or may not be used. There is a lot we don't know.
 

Franklin

Captain
how did we get 5 regiments of J-11B flying them? The first J-11B regiment is AL-31F. And I'm not even sure at this point if the 4 WS-10A J-11B regiments are all fully formed yet.

Also, they need to produce spares and engines to be used in testing and also replacements. There are also engines produced before 2010 which may or may not be used. There is a lot we don't know.

I'm qouting Asif's numbers on post #1912 on this thread.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Isn't in combat you want your engine to be reliable and long lasting? How do you know for certain how WS-10 and AL-31 performs in combat if there wasn't any combat lately at all? All you naysayers can say whatever you want, but the facts are that hundreds of PLAAF fighters are equipped with WS-10 are proof enough for me. And than you come up with some silly "issues" after reading some one so and so "expert" came up with an excuse about the problems that China has with it's own engine? Gee wiz don't you think it's a waste of money for PLAAF to put non-reliable engines onto planes? They don't have to show the world any combat footage how their WS-10 engines are performing because they're not on a marketing campaign to sell them. It's for domestic use for now, until someone wants to buy it.
Wargames...exercises. Engine reliability doesn't reflect combat performance unless logistics and upkeep is an issue. Pointing out potential limitations doesn't make me a naysayer. I didn't say it was a waste of money for the PLAAF to use the WS-10A. In fact, I suggested quite the opposite several times.
 
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