Chinese Engine Development

MiG-29 said:

I have no problem people making guesses, forums are most of the time guesses and opinions unless you quote official sources.


What i am saying is as long as you do not have official numbers an estimation is by no means an official number and has subjective facts which can be false.


Now will i take an official number with more authority than your opinion or my opinion? yes official numbers have more authority than my opinion, my estimates or your opinion and your estimates.


That is the main reason i do not believe many of the things said here, specially when they are opinions.

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"Official" sources can be subjective to. Nothing makes "official" any less subjective than "unofficial" except for the poorly found presumption that "official" sources are more likely to adopt a logical and objective method (and there is zero guarantee of this). In other words, it's not whether it is "official" or not that determines how objective information is, but the method by which the information is derived. If an official source derived their conclusions with the exact same method that an unofficial source did, does that make the official source more right than the unofficial source? (Hint, answer starts with an N.)

For more, read this page:

Engineer said:

Your believe or lack thereof does not alter the fact that many of the things said here are accurate. The measure of accuracy is invariant regardless of how you wave off information as opinion.

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This forum has accurate things, the pictures by Escobar show real evidence aircraft exist, that is the reason he is for me one of the great assets of this forum.

Pictures are good, true, official statements are others like Zhuhai, AVIC webpages, however you are pretty confuse.
Especulation is not always accurate.


To give you an example tell me which is the best documentary about Su-27, one by Wings of Russia where you have interviews with the designers and test pilots or one made by fan or an old western documentary like this?

of course you will take wings of Russia documentary as more reliable simply because it has official data and data from the designers, even depite the discovery channel documentary has some direct official input by the Russian air force.


To claim J-11B has this or that number deployed with WS-10 without any official source is pretty much fantasy, because you always have uncertain factors that can render the number false.

As such authours say estimates to save face if the calculation is false once official data is released.

For future references of fellow forum members, the following extract from a book written by the head of SAC 孙聪 explains why WS-10 and AL-31 cannot be interchanged. Specifically, the air inlet on the J-11B has been modified specifically for the WS-10. Likewise, the air inlet on J-10B will see similar changes. You guys can copy and paste this whenever someone tries to claim two engines can be interchangeable.

In order to satisfy the compatibility between inlet and engine, small modifications were made to the air inlet based on the original design on the initial prototype. The angle between the first and second ramps was modified from -4.9° to -2.7°. The angle between second and third ramps on the variable ramp was modified from 7° to 4°. With exceptions to modification to forward variable ramp in angles and support structures, the rest of the intake duct remains the same with the use of 2D70 Aluminum Alloy and riveted structures. The aft variable ramp has its stiffness, strength and weight modified according to compatibility requirements between air inlet and the engine.

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MiG-29 said:

This forum has accurate things, the pictures by Escobar show real evidence aircraft exist, that is the reason he is for me one of the great assets of this forum.

Pictures are good, true, official statements are others like Zhuhai, AVIC webpages, however you are pretty confuse.
Especulation is not always accurate.

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The only speculation here is your theory on WS-10 being unreliable. You have already been told that is not the case given the official information of large number of J-11B in service powered by WS-10 engines.

MiG-29 said:

To give you an example tell me which is the best documentary about Su-27, one by Wings of Russia where you have interviews with the designers and test pilots

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or one made by fan or an old western documentary like this

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

?

of course you will take wings of Russia documentary as more reliable simply because it has official data and data from the designers, even depite the discovery channel documentary has some direct official input by the Russian air force.

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With regards to Chinese aircraft, Russian sources are not reliable at all. This is true irrespective of how accurate you think Russian sources are on Russian aircraft might be.

MiG-29 said:

To claim J-11B has this or that number deployed with WS-10 without any official source is pretty much fantasy, because you always have uncertain factors that can render the number false.

As such authours say estimates to save face if the calculation is false once official data is released.

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That is merely your . You cannot disprove there are large number of J-11B in service with WS-10 engines, so you accuse people of falsely claiming there are exactly X number of J-11B using WS-10. Your attempt isn't going make a bit of difference to the fact that J-11B is deployed in large number powered by WS-10s. Whether the number of aircraft is 99, 100 or 101 is totally irrelevant.

You made statements that are factually incorrect based on your own beliefs. People with more knowledge than you on the subject matter called you out on it. Instead of pushing your baseless point of view, you should be a little bit more humble in accepting that there are things you did not know. Denial of conventional knowledge then repeating your opinions ad infinitum isn't going to turn your beliefs into reality.

Engineer said:

For future references of fellow forum members, the following extract from a book written by the head of SAC 孙聪 explains why WS-10 and AL-31 cannot be interchanged. Specifically, the air inlet on the J-11B has been modified specifically for the WS-10. Likewise, the air inlet on J-10B will see similar changes. You guys can copy and paste this whenever someone tries to claim two engines can be interchangeable.

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haha what a poor attempt to justify why China still buys Al-31s and J-10B still uses Al-31s.


Any real engineers knows how to cheapen de design process, the fact you have Su-33/J-15s and J-10Bs with both Al-31s and WS-10s shows that China is not going to increase price of their jets under the excuse the ramp has being modified.


Economics will force engineers to make the transition from an engine to the other with the less modification in the cheapest way.


Re-manufacturing is obvious a solution, J-15s with Al-31s and WS-10s shows easily the same airframe can easily change the engine same is J-10B, of course this is not an engineering school, but a forum where the most funniest things you can read, the F-14B and J-10B have the same philosophy, but of course because the prediuctions China was going to stop purchases of Al-31 failed, you have to invent a new theory.

Engineer said:

The only speculation here is your theory on WS-10 being unreliable. .

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look this is a forum, in real life China still buys Al-31s, production J-10Bs use Al-31s.

MiG-29 said:

haha what a poor attempt to justify why China still buys Al-31s and J-10B still uses Al-31s.


Any real engineers knows how to cheapen de design process, the fact you have Su-33/J-15s and J-10Bs with both Al-31s and WS-10s shows that China is not going to increase price of their jets under the excuse the ramp has being modified.


Economics will force engineers to make the transition from an engine to the other with the less modification in the cheapest way.


Re-manufacturing is obvious a solution, J-15s with Al-31s and WS-10s shows easily the same airframe can easily change the engine same is J-10B, of course this is not an engineering school, but a forum where the most funniest things you can read, the F-14B and J-10B have the same philosophy, but of course because the prediuctions China was going to stop purchases of Al-31 failed, you have to invent a new theory.

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ROFL! What a poor excuse to justify your speculation that has already been debunked multiple times.

AL-31 and WS-10 are obviously not interchangeable, since modifications have to be made to the air inlet for the WS-10 to work properly. Any real aerodynamic engineer will tell you that air inlet and engine must be compatible with each other for the engine to provide optimal performance.

MiG-29 said:

look this is a forum, in real life China still buys Al-31s, production J-10Bs use Al-31s.

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That is proven as nothing more than your fantasy already. In real life, those AL-31F will go on old Su-27SK/J-11A while those AL-31FN will go on J-10A.

Fellow forum members may also use the second paragraph on the same page to debunk claims about AL-31 and WS-10 being interchangeable. This most important part in this paragraph is that WS-10 has a higher flow rate than AL-31, requiring the modification to the air inlet.

The new engine has higher flow rate than the original engine. The presence of anti-FOD mesh and support bracket required the height in frontal cross sectional of the aft variable ramp to be reduced from 70mm to 50mm, so that compatibility requirements between inlet and engine may be satisfied. Since said cross section and stiffness is linearily correlated, reducing in height of the cross section requires the structural stiffness to be reduced by 50%.

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Tags: AL-31F; J-11B; WS-10A; air inlet modification; compatibility of inlet and engine; incompatibility of WS-10 and Su-27;

I do not read these aircraft threads because they are tooooo techy for me.

However.. this thread is out of control. It is now CLOSED until other Mods clean it up.

Thread Closed until further notice.



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