Chinese Engine Development

MiG-29 said:

In aviation is the same, J-10 was designed like the F-14A was designed to take the new F110-GE-400 engines and replace the TF30-P-414A engines, F-14A was later re-manufactured into the F-14B by just re-engine it.

Some were new built F-14B but many were F-14A upgraded into F-14Bs, J-10 most have a similar design.


The question here is the especulation about why this has taken so long to replace the engine with WS-10s

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Those are merely your excuses to boost your opinion without any real objective and proof. You are neither an engineer at Chengdu nor do you have official documents from CAC and PLAAF showing "J-10 was designed like the F-14A" and that both aircraft "must have a similar design". Until you can provide official documents from PLAAF saying J-10A can use WS-10A, all you have said is just your fantasy.

Engineer said:

Those are merely your excuses to boost your opinion without any real objective and proof. You are neither an engineer at Chengdu nor do you have official documents from CAC and PLAAF showing "J-10 was designed like the F-14A" and that both aircraft "must have a similar design". Until you can provide official documents from PLAAF saying J-10A can use WS-10A, all you have said is just your fantasy.

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another official version is not it?
probably you are an engineer at Chengdu

You guys had really overplayed the "competition" between SAC and CAC, They are essentially two branches of the same company and both owned by Chinese gov. No one in SAC are going to lose their rice bowl if SAC lost again in J-11B vs J-10B battle. If SAC get no order at all, they are just going to be absorbed by CAC or some other branch of AVIC. Sure the leader of SAC may miss a promotion or two if his unit get desolved but that's hardly something to risk your head over.

the delay of J-10B with domastic engine is best explained by the lack of demand from PLAAF. J-10B for all its wonders, is a defense based air-superiority fighter. The PLAAF is in the process of shifting into a more aggresive role within PLA. It is only logical the current focus of PLAAF is on heavier, longer range and more multi-role capable aircrafts like J-15/J-16. J-10B is good program, but PLAAF may just not need these type of plane right now. So they shelved it, freeing CAC to focus more on J-20 while giving SAC something to do in mean time.

MiG-29 said:

is that official or your point of view? has SAC said that is better to invest money in Russian engines than invest it on their own facilities the same money?


I do not believe that explanation.


It is far more economic invest money in China and make more WS-10s, but of course i am sure this is your opinion and not an official statement

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You asked for a reason, I gave you one.
it's good to purchase more of your own engines which constitutes investment into your own industry, but there is a thing called a budget that a military has. It would be stupid to procure new engines for old airframes that won't offer a massive boost in performance. Not to mention the engine maker may not be able to produce enough engines for both old airframes and new airframes, so really I don't see where your problem is.

And I highly regret that my record for not replying to any of your posts has been reset to zero.

MiG-29 said:

I asked how many J-11Bs have been made with WS-10s and how do you know their numbers, officially without error.

In the case of Russian Sukhois, Sukhoi it self as well as many russian sources like the Russian ministry of defence announce when a New Su-35, Su-30SM, Su-34 is deployed and built.

So pretty much you know how many Russian Sukhois are built without error.


I dislike data which is just meant to boast one self`s opinion without any real objective and accurate way of proof.


Can you give me a link of official sources, not forum calculations about how many J-11Bs are there with WS-10?

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The number of J-11B equipped with WS-10A does not alter the fact that enough WS-10A is deployed showing that the engine is reliable.

MiG-29 said:

If WS-10 is indeed reliable enough to be fit on Su-27s then i can assure you it is reliable to be fit on J-10Bs.

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You used the word "if", which means this is merely your opinion. You have provided no fact to show this to be the case, and I dislike statement which is just meant to boast one's opinion without any objective analysis or proof.

MiG-29 said:

Al-31F an AL-31FN regardless of the modification they are reliable not because are different but simply because the manufacturer has mastered all the technologies of 4th generation engines.

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Obviously, AL-31F is not an AL-31FN since Saturn gave these two engines different designations.

MiG-29 said:

If WS-10 is reliable enough for large numbers of J-11Bs i guess i would be inclined to say perhaps some politics are involve on J-10B`s choice of Al-31FN.
In that sense Lion`s argument is smart.

If J-11B has very unreliable engines is unlikely there are many J-11Bs out there.

First F-14A were re-engined with new engines making for new F-14Bs, so also you can ask why SAC does not re-fit WS-10s to old Su-27s if WS-10 is so reliable.

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You kept on using the word "if", which means all that you have said above are merely your assumptions that you have no proof of. We know there are many J-11Bs out there, so J-11B must have reliable engines. We also know that SAC does not refit WS-10s into old Su-27s despite WS-10 is reliable, which debunks your assumption that WS-10 is unreliable.

MiG-29 said:

In my opinion without official data all this discussion is a bunch of especulation.

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You only say that because you do not have proof to back up your fantasy, whereas our statements can be backed up by facts.

MiG-29 said:

Sorry i meant this


I asked how many J-11Bs have been made with WS-10s and how do you know their numbers, officially without error.

In the case of Russian Sukhois, Sukhoi it self as well as many russian sources like the Russian ministry of defence announce when a New Su-35, Su-30SM, Su-34 is deployed and built.

So pretty much you know how many Russian Sukhois are built without error.


I dislike data which is just meant to boast one self`s opinion without any real objective and accurate way of proof.


Can you give me a link of official sources, not forum calculations about how many J-11Bs are there with WS-10?

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Well tough luck because the PLA are as sensitive as a** about releasing that kind of information so either we all go home saying we don't know jack or we can try and make educational estimates and cross checking each other's estimates to get a grasp on what the reality could be.

So if you don't like the numbers people come up with, try and put holes through them as to where their estimate is wrong and give your own revised estimate instead of hiding behind a flimsy shield of only accepting the authenticity of official government and organization statement releases.

MiG-29 said:

another official version is not it?
probably you are an engineer at Chengdu

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You have provided no official documents showing "J-10 was designed like the F-14A" and that both aircraft "must have a similar design". Until you can provide such documents, all you have said is just your fantasy.

MiG-29 said:

Not when the information realeased is official as the Visit of the Russian Defence minister and the translation of what his Chinese collegue says, that TV report has more weight than what you even attribute simply because they are reporting an official event.

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There are many official statements made by governments around the world everyday. Yet, that does not mean those official information have any relevancy in this discussion. Your TV report said nothing about AL-31F being fitted to new built Chinese Flankers thus does not prove your opinions.

Bltizo said:

Well tough luck because the PLA are as sensitive as a** about releasing that kind of information so either we all go home saying we don't know jack or we can try and make educational estimates and cross checking each other's estimates to get a grasp on what the reality could be.

So if you don't like the numbers people come up with, try and put holes through them as to where their estimate is wrong and give your own revised estimate instead of hiding behind a flimsy shield of only accepting the authenticity of official government and organization statement releases.

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I have no problem people making guesses, forums are most of the time guesses and opinions unless you quote official sources.


What i am saying is as long as you do not have official numbers an estimation is by no means an official number and has subjective facts which can be false.


Now will i take an official number with more authority than your opinion or my opinion? yes official numbers have more authority than my opinion, my estimates or your opinion and your estimates.


That is the main reason i do not believe many of the things said here, specially when they are opinions.

MiG-29 said:

I have no problem people make guesses, forum are most of the time guesses and opinions unless you quote official sources.


What i am saying is as long as you do not have official numbers an estimation is by no means an official number and has subjective facts.


Now will i take an official number with more authority than your opinion or my opinion, yes official numbers have more authority than my opinion, my estimates or your opinion and estimates.


That is the main reason i do not believe many of the things said here, specially when they are opinions.

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Your believe or lack thereof does not alter the fact that many of the things said here are accurate. The measure of accuracy is invariant regardless of how you wave off information as opinion.