Chinese Economics Thread

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Will be fun, there will be millions of customers with money, wanting to buy present for christmass, and there is no chinese toy : )

MEans business opportunity : )

This trump guy doing what he meant to do.

And who care for bric brac and toy those industry are leaving China anyway But million of farmer in midwest will holding a bag when China restricting their sales It is 12 billion dollar agi export think about it
China can buy more from Brazil which they already did A bonanza for Brazil
Today is sorghum but tomorrow it will be soybean
 

broadsword

Brigadier
The story is even worst than it looks on surface.

China passanger car sales actualy grow by 1.4% from 2016 to 2017
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The samart phone sales droped by 4.9% , at the same time the US the sales growth by 1.5%.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


So, it looks like the real crisis in China started in 2017

What crisis?

So the sales of cars and smartphones dropped. Despite the country registering nealy 7% economic growth. And you did not bother to dig further to find out why? Because if you had taken the time to find out why, you would not be arguing for butthurt's sake because unlike Europe, the sales dropped not because the economy is was struggling.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
What crisis?

So the sales of cars and smartphones dropped. Despite the country registering nealy 7% economic growth. And you did not bother to dig further to find out why? Because if you had taken the time to find out why, you would not be arguing for butthurt's sake because unlike Europe, the sales dropped not because the economy is was struggling.
Hey, there's no official definitely of economic crisis so I guess cellphone sales volume drop by 4.9% due to Samsung being off-the-books sanctioned counts LOL. Paper cuts count as medical crises, right? (They do in Europe where wasting the doctor's time is free!) LOL

I want him to see China growing at nearly 7% while in "crisis" and the Europe growing at 0+/-2% when everything's fine. Remember, Analsverything, you said crisis, not me. Now witness the power of Chinese growth when in "crisis." LOL
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This is an excellent article debunking the myth of China "middle income trap". By 2020 China should be able to reach the goal of becoming high income country. Even now the wealthier coastal province should be there now. Via Beijing walker. The western taunt of"China middle income trap" is misplaced forgetting how long it take them to become high income country
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It took advanced economies decades, even centuries, to advance from low income to high income economies. Yet, today many of them demand that emerging economies should do the same in a matter of years. In Latin America, such policies cost "lost decades" not so long ago.

How China Can Surpass The Middle-Income Trap
Jan. 31, 2018 3:20 AM ET
By Dan Steinbock

China will surpass the middle-income trap by continuing to implement structural reforms and focusing on economic development. The lesson to other emerging economies is to distinguish good growth policies from self-serving agendas in the advanced West.

According to the World Bank, high-income economies ($12,236 or more) include the US, Western Europe and Japan, while upper middle-income economies ($3,956 -$12,235) feature Turkey, Russia, Brazil and China, among others.

In the past, many countries have attained moderate living standards, yet failed to graduate to the next level. China entered the ranks of the "upper-middle-income" countries in the early 2010s. But can the country avoid the middle-income trap?

Overcoming the middle-income trap
China has great potential to overcome the middle-income trap. First of all, its world-historical growth record speaks for itself.

Second, the rebalancing of the economy from exports and investment to consumption and innovation is proceeding according to the expected trajectory.

Third, new growth targets indicate that policymakers are well attuned to the need to move from simple growth to higher-quality development. Also, the deleveraging has slowed credit growth and will significantly lower local government debt in the late 2010s, which will ensure higher-quality growth.

Finally, the huge size of China's population disguises regional progress. In relatively wealthier megacities, including Shanghai, Shenzhen and Beijing, the middle-income trap may already have been surpassed.

What makes Chinese progress so impressive is that, unlike other major economies, China is executing structural reforms, which has proven so difficult in other countries.

America is so polarized that some policymakers prefer a government shutdown to a credible, bipartisan medium-term debt-cutting plan. In the eurozone, the sovereign debt crisis has caused huge dislocations and a cyclical recovery alone is not enough to resolve the structural crisis. In Japan, half a decade of massive monetary injections has not achieved adequate inflation.

Economic development is the priority
In the 19th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party (CPC), President Xi Jinping stressed that "development is the foundation and key to addressing all problems." China's medium-term policies must cope with these challenges in the "new normal" of the international environment, even as the country's "uneven and inadequate development" is at odds with "people's ever-growing demand for better life."

Achieving these objectives requires less uneven coverage of pension and health care insurance nationwide; basic public services; rejuvenation of rural areas through land and fiscal reforms; appropriate scaling of farming operations; increased spending on high school education and vocational training; more affordable housing; and extended rural land leases.

In China, economic reforms are central to the rebalancing, which could lift another 70 million people from poverty by 2020, just as it is turning the mainland into the leading actor in global efforts to combat climate change through innovation.

Not all Western lessons work in emerging world
To avoid the middle-income trap, the ability to distinguish between appropriate policies and misguided prescriptions is pressing for several reasons. First, there are the historical lessons.

It took advanced economies decades, even centuries, to advance from low income to high income economies. Yet, today many of them demand that emerging economies should do the same in a matter of years. In Latin America, such policies cost "lost decades" not so long ago.

Second, there is the matter of size. Advanced economies like to tout the success of British or American industrialization as a blueprint to emerging countries. Yet, when Britain and the US began industrialization, the former had barely 30 million people and the latter around 40 million (about the same as in Shanghai and Guangzhou alone). Laissez-faire doctrines fare particularly poorly in emerging economies, which are larger by magnitudes.

At the regional level, some areas of China's wealthier coastal megacities have already graduated into the high-income category, but national economy is still amid the transition. So the real question is not to compare China with industrializing Britain or the US, but to ask, "How long has it taken for Europe to industrialize, from the first industrial centers in the UK to rural Romania?" In the latter, more than 25 percent of people are still employed in agriculture.

If, after two centuries, industrialization is still not completed in peripheral Europe (in which population remains only half of that in the mainland), why is China expected to complete it in three decades?

Third, there is the issue of wealth. Advanced economies were pretty prosperous even before they industrialized, thanks - not to democracies and free markets but - to imperial regimes that grew wealthy on the back of infant-industry protection and protectionism, brutal colonialism, or both. In the mid-19th century Britain and late 19th century America, per capita incomes were at the level that Russia first reached in the 1950s, Brazil around 1960, China in the early 1990s and India just a decade ago.

The trick to avoid the middle-income trap is to avoid those development doctrines that reflect self-interested doctrines in the advanced world. The real task is to concentrate on economic development that supports progressive increases in living standards of ordinary people in emerging economies.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China's imports surge 37% in January, exports jump 11%
  • China reported a 36.9 percent jump in imports and a rise of 11.1 percent in exports — both in dollar terms — for the month of January.
  • January trade surplus was $20.34 billion.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
|
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Published 12 Hours Ago Updated 11 Hours AgoCNBC.com
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

STR | AFP | Getty Images
A container ship berths in Qingdao port, east China's Shandong province.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
reported a 36.9 percent jump in imports and a rise of 11.1 percent in exports — both in dollar terms — for the month of January, the country's statistics bureau said on Thursday. Both figures beat expectations.

A Reuters economist poll predicted that January imports had grown 9.8 percent from a year ago. They also expected export growth to come in at 9.6 percent.

Long Lunar New Year public holidays start next week in China, so the trade data may be skewed due to seasonal factors such as stockpiling.


Nonetheless, even with the festive season, the strong January reading indicates healthy domestic demand going into 2018, said Louis Kuijs, head of Asia economics at Oxford Economics.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
dollar-denominated exports rose 10.9 percent from a year ago, while imports rose 4.5 percent.

China's
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
surplus for January was $20.34 billion. Economists polled by Reuters had forecast a surplus of $54.1 billion.

The country's trade surplus with the U.S in January was $21.895 billion, down from $25.55 billion in December. That metric is closely watched as the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


China's January coal imports were the highest since the same month in 2014, according to Reuters records. Colder weather than usual has hit parts of the country this winter, pushing up demand for heating fuel.

Beijing said the world's second-largest economy
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
last year, beating forecasts on strong global and domestic demand.

Kuijs said a favorable external environment will continue to support China's exports in 2018. However, domestic demand may face challenges if there is a "a more pronounced-than-expected impact of the planned financial tightening and slower real estate activity," he added.
 
Last edited:

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
What crisis?

So the sales of cars and smartphones dropped. Despite the country registering nealy 7% economic growth. And you did not bother to dig further to find out why? Because if you had taken the time to find out why, you would not be arguing for butthurt's sake because unlike Europe, the sales dropped not because the economy is was struggling.

This simply means the "rebalancing from investment and export" doesn't worked well in 2017.


Add this to the exploding Chinese customer debt, and it will become visible the cellphone/car /
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
showing that the cusomer spending hit the peak.

I mean, check this 43.2->46.8 in one year , means 5.6% consumer debt increase.5.6% GDP growth comming from consumer debt increase.
china-households-debt-to-gdp.png

This is quater over quarter.
Compare the above to this:
united-kingdom-households-debt-to-gdp.png


In the past years aprox 5 % of the GDP growth come from the consumption financed from loans.

It means that as soon as the consumers start to decrease the loan ballances this will decrease the GDP growth.

See?

Without increasing consumer debt the Chinese GDP increase should be 1% in 2017.
As soon as the consumers start to deleverage ,like is UK ,the decreasing debt will deduct from the GDP grwoth.

Example the UK GDP growth was 11% smaller due to the consumer deleveraging between 2010-2016.

It is the news of the year : )

The whole Chinese story hit the wall .

They failed to ballance the growth, all that they did was to throw under the bus the middle class, and give bit more wealth to the goverment officials and to the business owners.


Now the only way out from this is same massive weapon / military program
Or deep political/economy changes.
Or whatever. I think they have very restricted freedom of move politicaly.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Oh ,if anyone think that there is more debt that the chinese middle class can take.

similar data for germany :
germany-households-debt-to-gdp.png


Poland
poland-households-debt-to-gdp.png



Japan:
japan-households-debt-to-gdp.png


So what will be the breaking point of the chinese consumers / banking system?
the german, polish , japan level?

China doesn't has personal bankrupcy, I think the high UK level is due to that ( the consumers willing to take more lightly loans if they can get rid of them)
My favorite is hungary ,lack of bankrupcy law, foreign currency debt :
hungary-households-debt-to-gdp.png


The Chinese allready higher than the Hungarian crisis triggering level.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
And Yet Chinese consumer debt is 45% vs 88% of UK I guess you are reading too much The economist Let me tell you here is the statistic of doom and gloom. None of them ever materialie or close to it for the last 30years
You also forget that homeownership in China is close to 90% one of the highest in the world. And I don't verify your curve Even assuming it is right it is even lower than Japan So what is the problem?
Consumer debt is high because of the high cost of Housing. But the required chinese downpayment is high so the chance of housing goes bust is very small!
And if you substract debt from asset their networth is still positive

Although China’s household debt level is still low compared to the 79.5 per cent of GDP in the US and 62.5 per cent in Japan, it has risen too steeply to be safe, according to a research report by the Institute for Advanced Research at Shanghai University of Finance and Economics which was published last month and led by former central bank statistics chief Sheng Songcheng.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Via Xinhui In the meanwhile.......

1990. The Economist. China's economy has come to a halt.
1996. The Economist. China's economy will face a hard landing
1998. The Economist: China's economy enters a dangerous period of sluggish growth.
1999. Bank of Canada: Likelihood of a hard landing for the Chinese economy.
2000. Chicago Tribune: China currency move nails hard landing risk coffin.
2001. Wilbanks, Smith & Thomas: A hard landing in China.
2002. Westchester University: China Anxiously Seeks a Soft Economic Landing
2003. New York Times: Banking crisis imperils China
2004. The Economist: The great fall of China?
2005. Nouriel Roubini: The Risk of a Hard Landing in China
2006. International Economy: Can China Achieve a Soft Landing?
2007. TIME: Is China's Economy Overheating? Can China avoid a hard landing?
2008. Forbes: Hard Landing In China?
2009. Fortune: China's hard landing. China must find a way to recover.
2010: Nouriel Roubini: Hard landing coming in China.
2011: Business Insider: A Chinese Hard Landing May Be Closer Than You Think
2012: American Interest: Dismal Economic News from China: A Hard Landing
2013: Zero Hedge: A Hard Landing In China
2014. CNBC: A hard landing in China.
2015. Forbes: Congratulations, You Got Yourself A Chinese Hard Landing.
2016. The Economist: Hard landing looms for China
2017. National Interest: Is China's Economy Going To Crash?
 
Last edited:

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
And Yet Chinese consumer debt is 45% vs 88% of UK I guess you are reading too much The economist Let me tell you here is the statistic of doom and gloom. None of them ever materialie or close to it for the last 30years
You also forget that homeownership in China is close to 90% one of the highest in the world. And I don't verify your curve Even assuming it is right it is even lower than Japan So what is the problem?
Consumer debt is high because of the high cost of Housing. But the required chinese downpayment is high so the chance of housing goes bust is very small!
And if you substract debt from asset their networth is still positive

doesn't matter what is the acceptable level, considering that the yearly growth is 5% ,so if you say that the crisis triggering level is 70 percent then in 4 years we will be there .

And when you hit the peak the housing market freeze, means that the house prices collapse.

So, it will be a self reinforcing process.

Additionaly, the Chinese household consumption to gdp level is low, considering that the UK household has 50% more debt capacity COMPARED TO THE GDP.

And we have the other symptomes , that saying the Chinese costomers hit the wall.

And again, the households financed the consumption increase from debt, not income, so as soon as they can't increase the indebtness the consumption growth hit the wall AND THE GDP GROWTH AS WELL.

And if they don't have money for pork then they hit the wall.

Of course it doesn't need to means 1930 wall street style crisis, more likely it will be 1990 Japan style, or 1970/80 CCCP style .
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China's imports surge 37% in January, exports jump 11%
  • China reported a 36.9 percent jump in imports and a rise of 11.1 percent in exports — both in dollar terms — for the month of January.
  • January trade surplus was $20.34 billion.
.

Interesting, in normal case it could be a good sign, meaning stronger internal / consumer demand.

However at the same time it looks like the commercial vehicle production increased ,the consumer is a dead fish in the water, so it can be a push from the policy makers to reintroduce the investment driven growth.

That can increase the import as they receive raw materials / machinery.

Very interesting.
 
Top