Chinese Economics Thread

[plawolf]

Once again, western "experts" miss the point. The reason Chinese education succeeds, and western education fails, is not the education system itself. There are pros and cons to either approach, the real determinant is the culture of education.

Chinese students get top scores because they and their parents take education seriously. In all societies, there are people who want to study and work hard, and people who just want to slack off. Chinese kids who don't study fail just as badly as western kids who don't want to study. However, Chinese kids who do study are much more likely to get the necessary support from their family, teachers, and peers than western kids who also want to study.

The key elements here are family and peers. I don't think I need to go into much detail about family support, but one oft-overlooked aspect is peers. In China, kids who get good grades are admired and popular. In the west, kids who get good grades are called names and socially outcast, while the kids who party all the time are the most popular.

Is it such a wonder then, that Chinese students perform so much better?

Indeed, I think you hit the nail on the head with the importance of value society places on good education.

However, other than full support and commitment from parents, another key factor that sets Chinese schools apart from those in the west is the respect and deference teachers command in China compared to in the west.

This allows the teachers to set the tone of what should be encourage and what should be discouraged, rather than the 'cool kids', as happens in the west.

Although to be honest, I think China and the west have taken to two polar extremes when it comes to education and the role of the teacher.

In China, I think often teachers wield too much power and influence, which can lead to them stifling creativity and independent thought in their students.

In the west, it's too often the reverse, with teachers giving students too much freedom that they can turn into uncontrollable animals who take over the classroom from teachers and create such a toxic environment that no one could learn (I firmly believe the rape and sexual assault culture in most western, especially American universities is a direct result of this culture of excessive tolerance and freedoms).

I am always of the view that extremes are bad, and that it is better to have more balance.

As such, I would be less smug about western schools starting to adopt Chinese teaching methods and be more anxious that Chinese schools should also be looking to take the best from the west to incorporate into their own methods to boost creativity, innovation and problem solving skills amongst Chinese students.

Nothing is every perfect, so there is always room for improvement. The only sure thing in this world is that those who sit on the laurels will fall behind those who continue to strive for excellence and improvement.

The west made that mistake when it sneered at China's 'primitive and outdated' teaching methods, and now have to eat humble pie and play catch up.

It would be a grave mistake and terrible irony for China to repeat that mistake.

 

[taxiya]

Indeed, I think you hit the nail on the head with the importance of value society places on good education.

However, other than full support and commitment from parents, another key factor that sets Chinese schools apart from those in the west is the respect and deference teachers command in China compared to in the west.

This allows the teachers to set the tone of what should be encourage and what should be discouraged, rather than the 'cool kids', as happens in the west.

Although to be honest, I think China and the west have taken to two polar extremes when it comes to education and the role of the teacher.

In China, I think often teachers wield too much power and influence, which can lead to them stifling creativity and independent thought in their students.

In the west, it's too often the reverse, with teachers giving students too much freedom that they can turn into uncontrollable animals who take over the classroom from teachers and create such a toxic environment that no one could learn (I firmly believe the rape and sexual assault culture in most western, especially American universities is a direct result of this culture of excessive tolerance and freedoms).

I am always of the view that extremes are bad, and that it is better to have more balance.

As such, I would be less smug about western schools starting to adopt Chinese teaching methods and be more anxious that Chinese schools should also be looking to take the best from the west to incorporate into their own methods to boost creativity, innovation and problem solving skills amongst Chinese students.

Nothing is every perfect, so there is always room for improvement. The only sure thing in this world is that those who sit on the laurels will fall behind those who continue to strive for excellence and improvement.

The west made that mistake when it sneered at China's 'primitive and outdated' teaching methods, and now have to eat humble pie and play catch up.

It would be a grave mistake and terrible irony for China to repeat that mistake.

very very true.
All my parents are teachers, school and university.
I also has a European friend who is a teacher in high school (gymnasium). She complained to me that some of her students are totally lack of respect of teacher, lack of drive to study and she is totally powerless to do anything. And from my memory, my friend is very nice person, both friendly and holding up to her principles. Although other students are good, a few of the "bad" ones will make a very bad role model.

 

[taxiya]

Just my own experience of HSR in China.

I traveled with HSR few days after the Chinese new year 2016 between two big cities, stopping at many mid-sized cities. The train was always more than 90% full. People's dresses and carryings show that the price of ticket is not much a concern. The time is not regarded as high time because by this time most people has joined their family in their hometown and won't be travelling long distance.

The "white-elephant" sayers better take a HSR trip in China before opening their mouth. These guys are just so deeply arrogant and ignorant to every vein and bone, or just plain propagandists. Either way, it is a shame they are regarded as "respectful professionals". A society full of them is doomed.

Another thing is that Chinese is richer than people outside think, even a minority of Chinese (<40%?) who can afford HSR regularly is a huge number compared any any other country. Size does matter. I have friends who visited Seoul and Taipei in the early 2000s, their view were that living standard and infrastructures in these two cities are no better than Beijing and Shanghai. The difference is that there are just so many big cities in China that are close to Beijing and Shanghai and many more smaller sized cities which are pretty good too.

A comparison to the old time in 1970s and early 1980s, a train ticket cost 50 Yuan which is 90% the monthly salary of a university assistant professor. An HSR ticket of the same distance is something around 400 Yuan which is 10% of a professor's salary. How could HSR not being able to be profitable when the old train service is profitable, or at least as profitable as the old train?

 

[Ultra]

Once again, western "experts" miss the point. The reason Chinese education succeeds, and western education fails, is not the education system itself. There are pros and cons to either approach, the real determinant is the culture of education.

Chinese students get top scores because they and their parents take education seriously. In all societies, there are people who want to study and work hard, and people who just want to slack off. Chinese kids who don't study fail just as badly as western kids who don't want to study. However, Chinese kids who do study are much more likely to get the necessary support from their family, teachers, and peers than western kids who also want to study.

The key elements here are family and peers. I don't think I need to go into much detail about family support, but one oft-overlooked aspect is peers. In China, kids who get good grades are admired and popular. In the west, kids who get good grades are called names and socially outcast, while the kids who party all the time are the most popular.

Is it such a wonder then, that Chinese students perform so much better?

"Chinese students get top scores because they and their parents take education seriously" - that part is true, but that is only a mean to an end. Chinese parents only wants their sons and daughters educated so they can get a good job and good life. That's as far as learning go for them. It is only a means to an end. As soon as their kids gets to good university, gets a good job, gets good money, they feel their task is finished, and the kids felt they have fulfill their task. It is an obligation, not for one's enlightment.

The real problem is still that performing better in school doesn't really translate to better scientific or technological advances. Science and technology in ther real world requires CREATIVE thinking and the way asian education system structure around rote learning is a huge detriment to encourage student in actual learning. By the time most of the people finished university they are practically burnt-out.

For example, in asian countries math is about memorizing complex equations and how to use it in the right context. It is endless reptition (mock exams, cram schools) to drill into you how to use these equations so much so the instant you see the question and the number you subconciously start writing out "the answer". Like a Pavlov's dog, asian students are trained to react reflexively without actually engaged in real thinking and problem solving.

It is also about "perfection" in asian culture - endless repetition to AVOID mistake. The culture is ADVERSE to mistake - and mistake is PUNISHED not celebrated in education. In the real world, one has to not be afraid of mistakes, and should actually embrace mistake when you are at the forefront of technology. But in China and many east asian country this mistake-adverse thinking is engrained and by the time the students are finish with their standard education it is already too late.

Couple with the institutional problem of copying (a by product of this rote learning process) it produce generations of people who are averse to actual learning, as learning is only a step to "success" and "life", not for one's own enlightment or enjoyment.

This is the reason and stumbling blocks for China if it wants to be the world leader in technology, when you are at the forefront, it requires imaginative and creative problem solver. All the chinese students I encounter in university and later in workplace none of them enjoy solving problem creatively. When a problem arise that doesn't have a standard response, they gave up very quickly thinking the problem is unsolvable. None of them seem to like learning for one's own enjoyment.

So essentially, they are a generation of "craftsman", after getting their degree or certificate there is little to no willingness to explore and expand their own horizon. There will be tiny incremental improvements, but no quantum leap.

 

[Ultra]

Also in regards to respect the teacher, in asian country the culture of ingrained respect is NOT real respect. It is liken to respect the train conductor no more no less. Its a formality that's all. That is not real respect. It is as superficial as it gets. Ask any kid in Asia if they REALLY respect their teacher, majority would most likely say NO.

The teachers themselves also behave more like train conductors too, not scientific explorers. It is about getting a bunch of kids from point A to point B. It is not about cultivating their scientific curiosity.

 

[vincent]

Also in regards to respect the teacher, in asian country the culture of ingrained respect is NOT real respect. It is liken to respect the train conductor no more no less. Its a formality that's all. That is not real respect. It is as superficial as it gets. Ask any kid in Asia if they REALLY respect their teacher, majority would most likely say NO.

The teachers themselves also behave more like train conductors too, not scientific explorers. It is about getting a bunch of kids from point A to point B. It is not about cultivating their scientific curiosity.

If you ask kids in Western countries, the answer is no either. At least the behaviour of asian students makes the classrooms conductive to learning

 

[AssassinsMace]

I know someone who's a teacher in the US public school system. Threats by the students to the teachers is a common occurrence. One time this teacher made the mistake of chit-chatting with his students about an upcoming school football game where he mentioned his nephew was on the opposing team. One of his students was on the school's team and asked him what number was his nephew. He told him and his student then said he was going to break his nephew's legs. The other school had to be warned especially since the wrong number was given of his nephew's jersey.

 

[solarz]

"Chinese students get top scores because they and their parents take education seriously" - that part is true, but that is only a mean to an end. Chinese parents only wants their sons and daughters educated so they can get a good job and good life. That's as far as learning go for them. It is only a means to an end. As soon as their kids gets to good university, gets a good job, gets good money, they feel their task is finished, and the kids felt they have fulfill their task. It is an obligation, not for one's enlightment.

The real problem is still that performing better in school doesn't really translate to better scientific or technological advances. Science and technology in ther real world requires CREATIVE thinking and the way asian education system structure around rote learning is a huge detriment to encourage student in actual learning. By the time most of the people finished university they are practically burnt-out.

For example, in asian countries math is about memorizing complex equations and how to use it in the right context. It is endless reptition (mock exams, cram schools) to drill into you how to use these equations so much so the instant you see the question and the number you subconciously start writing out "the answer". Like a Pavlov's dog, asian students are trained to react reflexively without actually engaged in real thinking and problem solving.

It is also about "perfection" in asian culture - endless repetition to AVOID mistake. The culture is ADVERSE to mistake - and mistake is PUNISHED not celebrated in education. In the real world, one has to not be afraid of mistakes, and should actually embrace mistake when you are at the forefront of technology. But in China and many east asian country this mistake-adverse thinking is engrained and by the time the students are finish with their standard education it is already too late.

Couple with the institutional problem of copying (a by product of this rote learning process) it produce generations of people who are averse to actual learning, as learning is only a step to "success" and "life", not for one's own enlightment or enjoyment.

This is the reason and stumbling blocks for China if it wants to be the world leader in technology, when you are at the forefront, it requires imaginative and creative problem solver. All the chinese students I encounter in university and later in workplace none of them enjoy solving problem creatively. When a problem arise that doesn't have a standard response, they gave up very quickly thinking the problem is unsolvable. None of them seem to like learning for one's own enjoyment.

So essentially, they are a generation of "craftsman", after getting their degree or certificate there is little to no willingness to explore and expand their own horizon. There will be tiny incremental improvements, but no quantum leap.

You are taking a very superficial view of academia and science.

First, repetition is not about avoiding mistakes. It is about mastering the basics so one can understand more advanced concepts: "熟能生巧" summarizes the concept behind it.

It works well for many disciplines. Chinese itself is a language where you have to memorize a lot of characters and pronounciations in order to become familiar enough with it to write poetry. Li Bai and Du Pu started their education just like every other Chinese pupil, are you going to say they were not creative?

Mathematics is another discipline where mastery of the rote is essential. On a basic level, you *must* memorize single digit additions and multiplications. There is no way around that. I remember I had memorized the multiplication tables in grade 1, and when I came to Canada, kids in grade 4 were still struggling with basic multiplication.

On an advanced level, try doing geometry without memorizing all the equations, or integration without memorizing all the formulas. Math benefits tremendously from rote learning. Of course, that does not mean rote learning by itself is enough. It is only a means to master the basics, not an end in itself.

Second, students go into academia and research for the same reasons whether they're in China or elsewhere. There's nothing about Chinese or Western style education that promotes creativity, it's just BS made up by western media to fee good about themselves. Chinese people come up with creative solutions to all kinds of problems, from mundane chores such as cleaning and cooking, to cutting edge technology like super computers and fusion.

Chinese education is not perfect. In fact, I would not even call it good. However, you do a disservice to the debate by subscribing to shallow stereotypes divorced from reality.

 

[Ultra]

You are taking a very superficial view of academia and science.

First, repetition is not about avoiding mistakes. It is about mastering the basics so one can understand more advanced concepts: "熟能生巧" summarizes the concept behind it.

It works well for many disciplines. Chinese itself is a language where you have to memorize a lot of characters and pronounciations in order to become familiar enough with it to write poetry. Li Bai and Du Pu started their education just like every other Chinese pupil, are you going to say they were not creative?.

We talking about creative problem solver. Is Li Bai a creative problem solver? He is a poet.

Mathematics is another discipline where mastery of the rote is essential. On a basic level, you *must* memorize single digit additions and multiplications. There is no way around that. I remember I had memorized the multiplication tables in grade 1, and when I came to Canada, kids in grade 4 were still struggling with basic multiplication.

On an advanced level, try doing geometry without memorizing all the equations, or integration without memorizing all the formulas. Math benefits tremendously from rote learning. Of course, that does not mean rote learning by itself is enough. It is only a means to master the basics, not an end in itself.

NO, but China and many asian countries take it to a whole different level. They drill you into memorizing way too many formulaes that are many times unexplained as they are shortcuts for solutions. It is expected you need to memorize these formulaes and more for the exams while in the west even the BASIC formulaes are sometimes PROVIDED for you in the exam. In fact many exams are OPEN BOOK exams. The mindset is completely different from this standpoint - that one is to want the student understand how the formulaes was derived from and the fundamental principles behind it and how to best utilize it and why, while the asian approach is just rote learning and forcing student think like mechnical robot through endless repetition and memorizations.

Fundamentally, western education emphasize understanding, while asian/chinese education understanding is not required.

Second, students go into academia and research for the same reasons whether they're in China or elsewhere. There's nothing about Chinese or Western style education that promotes creativity, it's just BS made up by western media to fee good about themselves. Chinese people come up with creative solutions to all kinds of problems, from mundane chores such as cleaning and cooking, to cutting edge technology like super computers and fusion.

One reason I believe why there are far too little creative endeavor by the asian society is the same reason why the Chinese parents force their kids to go into one of the STEMS streams - engineers, doctors, accountants, lawyers, architects. Many kids were forced into these professions when they have little to no interest in the subject. With no interest there is no passion and they become just zombies at work. While in the west the parents and teachers cultivate the children's passion for the subject they are interested in. My friends are all passionate about their own work and actually doing projects outside of work as hobby because they are just so passionate about their own work. I have rarely (or ever!) seen asian do anything outside of work that's related to work. The Japanese has a word for it : the "salaryman" and Nietzsche describes it as the "Last Man".

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Chinese education is not perfect. In fact, I would not even call it good. However, you do a disservice to the debate by subscribing to shallow stereotypes divorced from reality.

Do I? Really?
The supercomputer you talk about, is only a incremental improvement over the existing - not a fundamental quantum leap like the west is seeking. Now, coldfusion I didn't know China actually solve that problem and invented a coldfusion reactor that works. LOL.

If Chinese education system is truely superior, or at least equal to the west in that regard, shouldn't we be seeing at least 4 to 10 times more scientific, technological creative output out of China? Why is there so little coming out ??

 

[manqiangrexue]

Do I? Really?
The supercomputer you talk about, is only a incremental improvement over the existing - not a fundamental quantum leap like the west is seeking. Now, coldfusion I didn't know China actually solve that problem and invented a coldfusion reactor that works. LOL.

If Chinese education system is truely superior, or at least equal to the west in that regard, shouldn't we be seeing at least 4 to 10 times more scientific, technological creative output out of China? Why is there so little coming out ??

You really don't know anything about supercomputers. China's supercomputer program had no entries in the top 500 in 2000 and now it has more than the US. In this regard, China has made "quantum leaps" while the West has remained relatively stagnant. There are no technologies in supercomputing that the west seeks that China does not. As a matter of fact, all are now seeking to enter the exascale range and China draws first blood by creating not 1 but 3 alternate architectures under parallel exploration to reach it. The West is just playing catch up in a game they dominated half a decade ago.

And no, having 4-10 times more scientists of equal value does not mean 4-10 times greater progress. You have scientific exploration confused with carrying bricks up a hill. 2 points that you don't seem to understand are as follows:

1. Scientific progress is more akin to finding ways up a mountain. If you have 3 paths up a mountain and I have 30 paths, does that mean I travel up 10x faster? No. If you have fewer scientists, you have less mental resource to explore paths up a mountain. You may have found 3 paths and selected the best to be 2 km long. If I have 10 times more scientists of equal calibur, they may find 30 paths, and the best may be 1.7 km long. So it is faster scientific innovation but not on the direct additive order that would result in a 10 fold increase.

2. Scientific innovation builds on a base of knowledge and resources. The West has a huge head start on China so it had a much larger base to draw and build from. So while Chinese knowledge may expand more rapidly as a percent of its currently knowledge (and it certainly does), when starting out, that may equate to a lower total yield compared to the West, which may be growing slower relative to its base, but has a much larger base. This is just like the economy, where you may have a $1 trillion economy growing at 10% vs a $10 trillion economy growing at 3%; at first, the smaller one is growing slower even by direct measures but it picks up steam faster and is, in fact, set to overtake the larger economy.

It is undeniable that China's scientific progress, in recent times, has grown more swiftly than any other nation.