Chinese Economics Thread

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
There is a big difference, G7 are developed countries who are already rich with comprehensive social security and pension system in place. China is a developing country with massive population and a large section of that population extremely poor. There is little to no safety net for these people who get laid off. If there is massive slow down that results in high unemployement, with no safety net in place, there is going to be riots and maybe even revolution. It is said that the communist party relies on GDP growth to sustain their power base and social stability.

I don't know where you get your knowledge. But China does have social security net. Yes she does have unemployment insurance for urban dweller and Health insurance which is getting better with every year as she expand both the coverage and as well reduce the deductible.
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Almost 90% of the population get coverage.

She does have pension plan in place too.
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You need to brush up on your knowledge about Chinese social security system.
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Of course the primary responsibility of health care and taking care of the elderly rest on the family. You cannot depend on government 100%. That will weaken the social fabric of Chinese society

Getting back to GDP growth 6% is phenomenal growth . China is now classified as middle income country. Upper middle income actually.
With the economy the size of 10 trillion dollar, growing more than 6% actually will do more harm than good. This slow down is good opportunity to improve the quality of the growth. by taking care of environment and improve the social security, raising the wage and moving up the ladder of economy.

That is exactly what they do as we speak now

You are reading too much the doom and gloom of western press. You are maybe too young to know. But in 1994 millions of people get laid off because china converting from lifetime employment and gutted out outdated industry.

Inflation running at 14 to 16% Yet no revolution. I believe the government still has plenty of capital stock. Thing has to be like prewar China for riot to happen
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About 59 million people---more than the entire population of South Korea---were laid off in China between 1995 and 2005 during a process of restructuring and closing down inefficient state enterprises and state farms. The number of jobs at stare-owned factories dropped from 110 million in 1995 to 62 million in 2005.
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Many workers were laid off from state-owned factories in the 1990s and early 2000s. Over 10 million workers laid off in 1997. Over 13 million workers were laid off in 1998 and 8 million were laid off in 1999. Some were given "squid fried" (pink slip). Particularly hard hit were workers in the northwest industrial cities like Harbin and Shenyang, where factories laid off 20 percent of their workers.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
As usual, western media takes something fairly benign that is happening in China and blows it completely out of proportion.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As usual, western media takes something fairly benign that is happening in China and blows it completely out of proportion.

Donald Trump is actually the personification of the western media.

Repeat the same lie confidently enough times and people will start to believe it to the point where the truth doesn't actually matter any more even if the lie is later proven.

They would have long moved onto some new lie, and people's views and opinions have already been affected by the original lie.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
There is no such thing as a safety net ANYWHERE. China is moving up while the rest of the G-7 are moving down. High unemployment with much slower growth in comparison to China plus social instability to match with a growing number of right wing hard liners touting against immigrants. Remember China is now the world's largest middle class income that uplifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, thanks in part to the CPC input. A feat that NO member of the G7 could ever match.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
I don't know where you get your knowledge. But China does have social security net. Yes she does have unemployment insurance for urban dweller and Health insurance which is getting better with every year as she expand both the coverage and as well reduce the deductible.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Almost 90% of the population get coverage.

She does have pension plan in place too.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
You need to brush up on your knowledge about Chinese social security system.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Of course the primary responsibility of health care and taking care of the elderly rest on the family. You cannot depend on government 100%. That will weaken the social fabric of Chinese society

Getting back to GDP growth 6% is phenomenal growth . China is now classified as middle income country. Upper middle income actually.
With the economy the size of 10 trillion dollar, growing more than 6% actually will do more harm than good. This slow down is good opportunity to improve the quality of the growth. by taking care of environment and improve the social security, raising the wage and moving up the ladder of economy.

That is exactly what they do as we speak now

You are reading too much the doom and gloom of western press. You are maybe too young to know. But in 1994 millions of people get laid off because china converting from lifetime employment and gutted out outdated industry.

Inflation running at 14 to 16% Yet no revolution. I believe the government still has plenty of capital stock. Thing has to be like prewar China for riot to happen
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About 59 million people---more than the entire population of South Korea---were laid off in China between 1995 and 2005 during a process of restructuring and closing down inefficient state enterprises and state farms. The number of jobs at stare-owned factories dropped from 110 million in 1995 to 62 million in 2005.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Many workers were laid off from state-owned factories in the 1990s and early 2000s. Over 10 million workers laid off in 1997. Over 13 million workers were laid off in 1998 and 8 million were laid off in 1999. Some were given "squid fried" (pink slip). Particularly hard hit were workers in the northwest industrial cities like Harbin and Shenyang, where factories laid off 20 percent of their workers.
There is no such thing as a safety net ANYWHERE. China is moving up while the rest of the G-7 are moving down. High unemployment with much slower growth in comparison to China plus social instability to match with a growing number of right wing hard liners touting against immigrants. Remember China is now the world's largest middle class income that uplifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, thanks in part to the CPC input. A feat that NO member of the G7 could ever match.


Oh really?? Let me see....



China’s social security system
Introduction

The two-week strike by around 40,000 workers at the
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in April 2014 was a watershed moment in Chinese labour relations. Not only was it the largest strike in recent history, it, crucially, highlighted the numerous problems endemic in China’s social security system.

The strike was triggered when workers discovered that the company had been underpaying social insurance contributions for years on end, leaving thousands of employees, who had spent much of their working lives at the company, with a much smaller pension than they were entitled to.

In some respects, the Yue Yuen workers were lucky to have any kind of pension: Despite government attempts to increase pension and other social insurance coverage, the majority of workers still lack an effective welfare safety net. Official figures show that in 2013, only 242 million workers, less than one third of China’s total workforce of around 770 million, had a basic pension. See the graph below.

pension%20coverage%202004-13.png

Source: China National Statistical Yearbook 2014

The problems in China’s social security system can be traced back to two key events: The break-up of the state-run economy, which had provided urban workers with an “iron rice bowl” (employment, housing, healthcare and pension), and the introduction of the one-child policy in the 1980s, which meant that parents could no longer rely on a large extended family to look after them in their old age. In other words, as the economy developed and liberalized in the 1990s and 2000s, both the state and social structures that had supported workers in their old age, ill-health and during times of economic hardship gradually vanished, leaving a huge vacuum to fill.

The Chinese government sought to create a new social security system based on individual employment contracts that would make employers, rather than the state, primarily responsible for contributions to pensions, unemployment, medical, work-related injury and maternity insurance. In addition, the government established a housing fund designed to help employees, who no longer had housing provided for them, buy their own home.

The new system emerged piecemeal through a series of specific regulations and provisions in the 1994 Labour Law (劳动法) and 2008 Labour Contract Law (劳动合同法) etc. It was not until 2011, however, that these separate parts were codified into a comprehensive national framework in the Social Insurance Law (社会保险法). The basic principles of China social security system, as outlined in the Social Insurance Law are as follows:

  • All employees, including rural migrant workers, should be covered by the social insurance system.
  • Both employers and employees are required to make contributions (at different rates) to a pension fund, unemployment insurance fund and medical insurance fund, as well as the Housing Provident Fund. Employers, but not employees, are also required to contribute to the work-related injury and maternity insurance funds.
  • The various insurance funds are managed by local governments and are pooled into provincial or municipal funds. Usually it is the local labour or human resources and social insurance departments that manage the social insurance funds, while the Housing Provident Fund is managed by the local government’s Housing Provident Fund Management Committee.
  • The funds collected must only be used for the specific purpose intended, namely the provision of social insurance for workers and retirees.
  • The pension and medical insurance funds are composed of pooled components, which can be used to benefit any eligible employee, and personal accounts that benefit the individual employee concerned, when they become eligible.
  • Social insurance benefits should remain with workers when they move. However this provision has proved very difficult to implement because of the highly localized nature of the social welfare system in China. Getting different jurisdictions to share information is fraught with bureaucratic and technical difficulties, especially for workers coming from rural areas of China.
In general, as with nearly all labour legislation in China, enforcement of the Social Insurance Law, even its most basic provisions, has been very lax, and the majority of workers are still denied the social security benefits they are legally entitled to.

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Overall, sounds pretty bad to me. China doesn't have a comprehensive social security system in place. And with an inverted population pyramid - a very large population of retirees in coming decades with very far smaller pool of young people to support the system, and a weak social security system in place, this just sounds like tragedies waiting to happen.
There will be a lot of elderly sucides, abandoned elderly people...or elderly people starved to death in their own home.

There is also a massive difference between the massive laid offs that happened during China's transformative year from State Own Enterprises (SOE) to Private Enterprises (PE) - namely that China was at its most astounishing growth phase, with a very large population of young workers who just came into force while the population control of 1981 wasn't felt yet (the generation was still in their early teens). Now the China faces the triple whammy of high labour cost, rapidly aging population and decelerating economy.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I have no idea where you found these articles. I have uncles and aunts who are retirees and still live in China. All of them have comprehensive retirement coverage including paycheck and medical insurance. I don't know the details of their packages, but they must have plenty because they all do a lot of traveling. Some of them spend months in Europe every year. Some of them have long term illnesses like diabetes and cardiovascular diseases. They seem to have no worries for their medical bills. and none of them is high level govnt officials, just average Joes. An elementary school teacher, several engineers, a couple of factory workers (one of them got laid off in the mid 90's), a scientist, a police officer, etc...

I do remember that they used to worry about their retirement a lot because they were not getting enough. And plus the medical bills and things... Then about 10-15 years ago, things began to turn around. They started to get more money for their paycheck and theor medical bills also began to go down. I think they were saying that their retirement paycheck has been increased about 10% a year for the past 15 years. One of my aunts mentioned that she was getting a little over 1000 Yuan/month when she retired about 15 years ago. Now she is making close to 7000 Yuan/month. She's a factory worker at a cotton factory.

My parents also keep contact with their former colleagues back in China. Every time they call, they would of course hear many complaints about China. However, none about retirement plans. Their colleagues are moving into better houses and traveling and buying nice toys. One of them, whom I knew well when I was little, is into photography and buying fancy cameras with lens that looks like a mile long. Another lady, whom I also knew when I was little, is going back to "adult colleges". These would be schools specifically set up for retirees. I think she is learning Chinese calligraphy. They all seem to be happy enough to develop hobbies and such. Keep in mind that these are scientists, who have always been neglected and ignored by Govnt in China.
 
did you know
China Credit Outlook Cut to Negative From Stable by Moody's
?
China’s credit-rating outlook was lowered to negative from stable at Moody’s Investors Service, which highlighted the country’s surging debt burden and questioned the government’s ability to enact reforms just days before leaders gather to approve a five-year road map for the economy.

The government’s financial strength may come under pressure if it takes on liabilities from troubled state-owned companies, while capital outflows have limited policy makers’ scope to stimulate the weakest economy in a quarter century, the ratings company said in a statement on Wednesday. State intervention in equity and foreign-exchange markets has heightened uncertainty about the leadership’s commitment to reform, Moody’s said.

While markets shrugged off the outlook cut on Wednesday, it highlights concern among global investors that the ruling Communist Party will struggle to overhaul Asia’s largest economy at a time when capital is flowing out of the country and debt levels have climbed to an unprecedented 247 percent of gross domestic product. Chinese leaders will begin nearly two weeks of policy meetings on Saturday to map out how to tackle the nation’s economic challenges and meet the government’s goal of doubling per-capita income by 2020.

“The government’s ability to absorb shocks has diminished and we want to signal this in the negative outlook,” Marie Diron, a senior vice president at Moody’s, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. Authorities “have stepped backward in their reform steps and so that is creating some uncertainty.”

The concerns flagged by Moody’s, which also included the risk of capital outflows and shrinking foreign-exchange reserves, have already manifested themselves in markets over recent months. The cost to insure Chinese government bonds against default for five years has climbed about 38 basis points, or 0.38 percentage point, since mid-November to 134 basis points. That exceeds the cost of credit-default swaps on the Philippines, which has a Moody’s rating five levels below that of China.

Shanghai stocks, meanwhile, have dropped 20 percent this year and the yuan has slipped 0.8 percent in onshore trading against the U.S. dollar. On Wednesday, credit-default swaps were little changed, while the Shanghai Composite Index climbed 4 percent on speculation the government will announce more economic stimulus measures. The yuan rose less than 0.1 percent.

China’s Ministry of Finance sold 20 billion yuan of 10-year bonds at 2.82 percent and the same amount of 1-year notes at 2.15 percent after the Moody’s announcement on Wednesday. The yields were lower than prevailing rates in the secondary market.

“The ratings haven’t been changed, so I expect market reaction to initially be muted,” said Andy Ji, a Singapore-based foreign-exchange strategist and economist at Commonwealth Bank of Australia. “There’s no new information here, just recognition of the issues we’ve known for years.”

No Quick Fix
While Moody’s cut its outlook, the ratings company also highlighted its rationale for affirming China’s long-term credit rating of Aa3, the fourth-highest investment grade. The large size of China’s economy contributes to its credit strength, while growth is still higher there than most of its peers. The country also has a moderate level of low-cost government debt, high domestic savings and substantial foreign-exchange reserves, Moody’s said.

The ratings company said it may downgrade China’s rating if the pace of reforms needed to support growth slows, while it would revise the outlook to stable if the nation reduces its liabilities by restructuring state-owned enterprises.

“China has been moving toward some of the recommended measures that the ratings agencies have put forward, but the pace may not be what they expect,” said Tommy Ong, a managing director for treasury and markets at DBS Hong Kong Ltd. “It’s a long-term process, no quick fix.”

Growth Target
The Moody’s warning comes two weeks after Standard & Poor’s said in an interview with Bloomberg News that rising debt levels in China could pressure the country’s credit rating. A surge in new credit to a record 3.42 trillion yuan ($525 billion) in January, along with the central bank’s decision this week to cut banks’ reserve requirements, have fueled concern that bad debts will rise as the economic slowdown erodes corporate profitability. Equity analysts at HSBC Holdings Plc downgraded their recommendations on China’s biggest banks on Wednesday.

S&P, which has a China rating equivalent to that of Moody’s, declined to comment on Wednesday. Fitch Ratings, which grades China one notch lower, didn’t immediately reply to questions on its outlook.

Markets may be hopeful that the Moody’s cut “will push the Chinese government to do more by way of reforms,” said Vasu Menon, a Singapore-based vice-president for wealth management research at Oversea-Chinese Banking Corp. “However, if other rating agencies follow suit, this could cause investors to turn cautious, not just on China’s currency and financial markets and but also Asian markets too.”

Slower Growth
Premier Li Keqiang is expected to set a lower bar for economic growth at the upcoming National People’s Congress, with a 2016 target expansion range of 6.5 percent to 7 percent, compared with last year’s goal of around 7 percent.

Economists predict policy makers will keep leaning on credit growth to achieve that target, with seven out of 12 forecasters surveyed by Bloomberg last month seeing the debt-to-gross-domestic-product ratio increasing through at least 2019 and four expecting a peak in 2020 or later. Debt will
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283 percent of GDP, according to the median estimate of eight economists.

Investors will keep a close eye on China’s foreign-exchange reserves and capital outflows in coming months to gauge prospects for the economy, according to Menon. The nation’s currency hoard shrank by $99.5 billion in January to $3.23 trillion, the lowest level since 2012. The central bank has been spending its reserves to shore up the yuan after investors increased bets against the currency at the start of this year.

Moody’s “does not see the country as being in dire straits yet,” Menon said. “Nevertheless, concerns that China will devalue its currency against the U.S. dollar remain a key global uncertainty.”
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vesicles

Colonel
I don't understand this... About a decade ago, every expert acknowledged that China could not and should not sustain such high speed growth and needed to cool down. Everyone predicted that China's economy was going to "crash land". And it would be the end of China... Then China didn't "crash land". They somehow managed to soft land and cool down their economy gradually as most wanted them to. If I remember correctly, most economists estimated that 6-7% growth would be ideal for China, while predicting that China could never do it. Now China has done it. Yet, these experts turn it 180 deg and describe China's economy as "not in dire straits yet"? Maybe I'm missing something...
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Overall, sounds pretty bad to me. China doesn't have a comprehensive social security system in place. And with an inverted population pyramid - a very large population of retirees in coming decades with very far smaller pool of young people to support the system, and a weak social security system in place, this just sounds like tragedies waiting to happen.
There will be a lot of elderly sucides, abandoned elderly people...or elderly people starved to death in their own home.

There is also a massive difference between the massive laid offs that happened during China's transformative year from State Own Enterprises (SOE) to Private Enterprises (PE) - namely that China was at its most astounishing growth phase, with a very large population of young workers who just came into force while the population control of 1981 wasn't felt yet (the generation was still in their early teens). Now the China faces the triple whammy of high labour cost, rapidly aging population and decelerating economy.

You quoted from outdated source. There different tier of pension fund in China There are rural and urban pension fund with different benefit and different funding
The urban pension cover 220 million people and the newly created(2013) rural pension cover 390 million people.So it basically cover 610 million people

As I said there are challenges and problem with Chinese pension fund But is far from hopeless. Even your quoted article show increasing participation in the pension fund. And new reform has been rolled out in 2015
Remember this is the first time that Chinese people has any kind of insurance ever!
Of course with new system there is problem from legacy system and history. But it is far from hopeless. Paulson institute address some of this problem and offer solution which is more or less implemented
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Let see inverted population pyramid?
This problem is not specific to China All the European country,Japan, Korea and Singapore suffer the same problem. But the massive hoard of 3.3 trillion dollar should go along way. Another thing is though there are less young people they are better educated and make more money than the previous generation. The government has lifted the restriction on single child rule.

The system is fragmented and underfunded

But this is due to legacy of SOE and the fact that China was poor in 1990 so it is impossible to offer the rural folk the same benefit as the city fold But reform is underway to unify the system
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Ma said the government hopes to cover 900 million people by 2017, and 1 billion in 2020, raising the coverage rate from the current 80 percent to 95 percent.


In the past two decades, China's public pension systems used different methods of payment, accounting and management, which resulted in widespread disputes.

The monthly pension for retired civil servants and staff in public institutions were 2.1 and 1.8 times the common pension level of 1,900 yuan, according to the the Ministry of Finance's fiscal science research institute.

Private urban employees pay for their pension before retirement and usually get a pension equal to about half of their final salary, but public workers get much more without making any financial contribution at all.

Slowing economy what slowing economy? Any western country would die to have economy growth of 7%.
China is in the mid of transition from investment based economy to consumer based economy just like in 1990 when she convert from socialist economy to capitalist system.
Any changes is upsetting. But the trend is clear. The consumption part of the GDP grew to 50 % and it grow double digit every year. Higher wages is the prerequisite for increase consumption.

It also forced the industry to upgrade their product and increase mechanization and automation therefore improve the quality of their product. It is a well trodden path that Japan and Korea takes. China cannot depend on export to grow infinitely There is only so much capacity in the world to absorb those export. And with slowing economy in western world , it is impossibility . She has to increase the domestic consumption

We also know that the composition of export has change considerably instead of exporting textile.clothing and toy. China now export computer, cell phone , machinery and telecommunication equipment. railway etc. So the climb to economy ladder has been realized with attending benefit of higher productivity and wages

Elderly people commit suicide? I never read any new about it

As I said before you are reading to much of western press that tend to make a hill out of ant mole. Taking an isolated case of labor dispute or strike and generalized it into doom and gloom
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
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That is because the majority of Western media types only want to see China crash and burn and will present any event or fact in the most negative light.

The trouble with any indicator is that it is limited and can misrepresent a situation. The weakness with PMI is that it measures its factors in financial terms and works best when measuring constants.
Recently, we have seen the price of Fuel and Raw Materials slump - the PMI will record this as a retraction in overall financial terms, even if volumes purchased have increased.
Likewise Inventories are deemed bad if high, but do not differentiate between finished products (unsold) or raw materials stockpiled while prices are low.
Another key benchmark is staff recruitment, but even here, if a company is modernising and investing in modern machinery and automation, (not recruiting large quantities of labour) it will show as a retraction.

Like everything else, all measures need reading in conjunction with other indicators and actual company results.
 
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