Chinese Economics Thread

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Comparison between China and Germany and Japan were always driven more by idealology (of those making the comparison) and wishful thinking than any semblance to facts and reality.

China haters wants to link Chinese rise with memories of WWII to get ordinary people to feel uneasy and even oppose a rising China.

They also want people to drawn the conclusion that China's rise is only temporary and comes at unacceptable cost (why do you think western media give so much prominence to every pollution scare in China? Its not like their primary target ordinance will actually need that information. Same with human rights, censorship etc) that it is doom to fail at some point as a means to preserving the supposed divine superiority of their own form of governance and social values in the face of growing empirical evidence to the contrary.

Janus is right when he said every system has its limitations. What he failed to grasp is that systems can be changed and improved once those limitations manifest themselves.

Perhaps he is confused because that is an utterly alien concept in the west, where dusty old documents written by people who could not have possibly imagined the complexities and challenges of the modern world are still held as sacred and the embodiment of divine perfection even when religious adherence to those archaic tombs has produced nothing but bad policies and worse governance.

The rabble in the western media always harp on about China's supposed lack of political reform to match the scale and scope of its economics reforms. But the fact is that there has been enormous and comprehensive political reform in China that proceeded and probably even surpassed its economies reforms in both scale and scope, and that China's economics reforms and grown was only made possible by those political reforms.

Only one man in the western media world has so far had the insight to recognised that. The reason China's political reforms have been somehow missed by the west is because of the west's hubris and arrogance in insisting that only reforms that makes others conform to the west's model of political and social governance and values can be recognised as reforms at all.

All of the political changes and reforms implemented in China had been written off high-handily in the west as petty factional court politics or score settling, with little to no heed paid to the political ramifications of what it might mean for one faction to gain prominence and what it means for certain influential individuals to loose or gain powerful positions.

Just because the west shuts its eyes, blocks its ears and shout 'it isn't happening, it isn't happening' does not change the fact that the CCP has changed enormously since even the time of Deng, and continues to change even as we speak.

That ability to adapt and change is the key to its continued existence and success rather than all the 'oppression' its supposed to be doing.
 

counterprime

New Member
Registered Member
Arrogance is part of it. There are additional reasons:

● Most importantly, countries unwilling to submit to the west as an economic colony are demonized.

Pro-usa India has failed when compared to China and suffers far greater poverty, illiteracy, inequality, disease, sexism, violent human rights abuses, etc yet the west calls it a "democratic miracle".

Similar praises are sung for the pro-usa colonies, Philippines and Indonesia (around 3 million where genocided under the western-backed Suharto.)

western critics are often hypocritical:
1. China was criticized for being communist and then getting criticized for being capitalist
2. China was criticized for having too many people and then getting criticized for One-Child-Policy to limit her population
3. China gets criticized for not giving enough foreign aid and then getting criticized for "colonizing" Africa when they built infrastructure, do trade, and forgave 30 billion in African debt.

● Distract from their own domestic failures.
● Legitimize their own government with exaggeration and/or lies eg "China may have a strong economy but we have human rights and tolerance."
● Condition the populace with anti-China hate to support future wars against China
● Smear a different system of governance. Western democracy is really an oligarchy. Growing supporters of China's successful governance are a threat to the western oligarchs.
 

balance

Junior Member
Similar praises are sung for the pro-usa colonies, Philippines and Indonesia (around 3 million where genocided under the western-backed Suharto.)

Soeharto was supposed to be Western-backed colony, but he didn't really practice democracy. Indonesian became democratic after his removal in 1998. But then corruption level is going up many times more than Soeharto's time.

It's hard to say if democracy makes Indonesia stronger. Indonesia is strong economically because of its natural resources.
Any non-Muslims and Chinese minority would rather have a stronger (even dictatorial) government than a democratic one.

1998 rape of Chinese women in Indonesia happened after the removal of the "strong man" (Soeharto).

How does democracy always make a country stronger? It's hard to say.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
No one is saying it's going to fail. I would rather say that every system has it's limits and once you get there there's nothing you can do to improve. Chinese system will get the biggest inertion in the history (it's population) as well so changes to that scheme will be even harder to implement. Everything's going smooth so far but what if real problems will come along the road? That's what it is. And blind fanboyism won't change that fact.

Yes there's is a limit. There will come a day that China stops growing at this rate. It's true that China as of today already faces enormous challenges. I do no deny any of these.

However what I was saying was that we're still far from reaching our full potential. Only 50% of Chinese people live in the cities whereas when Japan's economy collapsed almost 80% already lived in the cities. We have a huge work force and are producing millions of college graduates every year, these people will form the backbone of the Chinese society in the future.

We are still moving up the value chain. Commercial planes, computer chips, high-end equipments, there's still a lot of room for our manufacturing to grow.

Our financial system needs reforms too. Right now it is not fully open and when it does, it will facilitate our economic growth better.

Right now China is about 10% primary industry, 44% manufacturing industry, and 46% tertiary industry. The US economy is about 80% tertiary industries.

We still have a lot of potential to be unleashed and it is just plain wrong to say that because Germany or Japan failed to overtake the US to become the world's largest economy, China will not as well.

Japan and Germany and Russia today has a combined population close to American population. Meanwhile China has four times the population and we are doing all that we can to better educate our people.
 

A.Man

Major
Chinese Economics 101

[video]http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MjM5NjUxNjQ0MA==&mid=200924774&idx=2&sn=023b5b5bc57bbd3ea7eb28f355919dfb&scene=1&from=groupmessage&isappinstalled=0#rd[/video]
 

Doombreed

Junior Member
Arrogance is part of it. There are additional reasons:

● Most importantly, countries unwilling to submit to the west as an economic colony are demonized.

Pro-usa India has failed when compared to China and suffers far greater poverty, illiteracy, inequality, disease, sexism, violent human rights abuses, etc yet the west calls it a "democratic miracle".

Similar praises are sung for the pro-usa colonies, Philippines and Indonesia (around 3 million where genocided under the western-backed Suharto.)

western critics are often hypocritical:
1. China was criticized for being communist and then getting criticized for being capitalist
2. China was criticized for having too many people and then getting criticized for One-Child-Policy to limit her population
3. China gets criticized for not giving enough foreign aid and then getting criticized for "colonizing" Africa when they built infrastructure, do trade, and forgave 30 billion in African debt.

● Distract from their own domestic failures.
● Legitimize their own government with exaggeration and/or lies eg "China may have a strong economy but we have human rights and tolerance."
● Condition the populace with anti-China hate to support future wars against China
● Smear a different system of governance. Western democracy is really an oligarchy. Growing supporters of China's successful governance are a threat to the western oligarchs.

Alright. Here comes the other side of the coin.

You have to admit. The CCP has done some pretty gnarly stuff right? They're not exactly a Nordic liberal democracy. There is a reason why people in the west distrust and dislike the CCP. It's not like everyone wakes up one day and decides to hate the Chinese. So for you or anyone to defend the CCP, there's really two ways to look at it. One. The CCP is reformed. They were pretty nasty but they're are not anymore. Well. In that case people needs convincing. The CCP hasn't atoned, like the Germans for their past sins. Imagine how you feel about Japanese revisionism. It's kinda like that. How can you be reformed if don't repent your past sins? Two. You don't really care about the nasty stuff the CCP did and some of the nasty stuff they're doing now, as long as you get results. And that really don't sit well with people in the west.

So that's the quick reason why people don't get the warm and fuzzies when the CCP gets brought up.

But I guess the question is why do you care? Why do you care that the west is not praising the CCP? We all want to hear what we want to hear. And that's what the media is giving us. We don't dislike the CCP because the CCP is actually quite nice and the MSM is brain washing the unwashed masses in the west.

I tell American's the same thing. If someone don't like you, then they have a problem. If nobody likes you...well.....
China aspires to be America. Now you got something else in common. No one else in the world really likes you. It's lonely at the top.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The difference between the CCP and the Nazis and even the Japanese (and any other controversial state you want to mention):
1: there were never any mass deliberate genocides or massacres meant to kill either their own citizens or other citizens (yes this includes GLF and TAM)
2: the CCP has not invaded any sovereign country or imposed its will in such a way which is even near comparable to the Nazis or Imperial Japanese -- two regimes whose legacies are characterized by notions of racial superiority, and condemned by events like the Holocaust, Nanjing massacre, and destruction of foriegn territory and massacres of foreign civilians. Like it or not, I think most people would say there is a difference between choosing to implement bad policies against your own citizens and massacring those of other countries.

But I understand what you mean -- you want a stark "apology". Things like the GLF, cultural revolution, and even TAM, yes?
Well that probably will come eventually, but it will only be once the CCP has brought full industrialization, modernization and "revival" (economic, technological, military, political) to the nation. That is to say, the CCP will seek to be defined by its successes rather than seeking to succeed to "atone" for past mistakes.

Afterall, bringing in such sensitive topics to the Chinese public at this stage of development would make development and implementation or policies that much harder, won't it? It'll challenge the CCP's authority.

---

But back to your original point: the problem many Chinese have with the west criticizing China is that it's seen as hypocrisy. I suspect this has to do with how broad one views "history". I suspect many Chinese view modern history as going as far back as the early 1800s to now, whereas the west sees modern and relevant history since the 1900s. So Chinese people consider all the stuff western empires and states did in the 19th century and now see the west harping on about what China is doing now, and they view it like weighing an elephant and a mouse. One can say that we now live in an enlightened era, so we have higher standards, but on the flipside, it's viewed as someone saying "we're allowed to do these morally reprehensible stuff because it was X number of years ago, but now we are going to judge you if you do anything similar".

I'm not saying which view is right, but rather that there are opposing views.

Now, I'm going to go one step further and seek to explain why I think the west doesn't like the CCP:
1: they're communist. Communism = bad, right? (even though they're not really communist now per se, but still red chinese something something)
2: they're not democratic. Ridiculous, innit? everyone knows democracies are the only enlightened way to develop countries, and without democracy it means the state is goose stepping on citizen's faces. Oh, its people must be itching to vote in leaders of their own choosing and every other development in the last few decades are worth nothing if they don't have that!
3: they have censorship. More faces, more goosesteps. Let's ignore that chinese citizens now have more freedom of expression than they ever had before. If they can't have the freedom (TM) to watch uncensored, unlimited hollywood movies and seek rallies to overthrow the CCP then they're being oppressed (TM)
4: tibet, TAM, GLF, being an atheist state, etc

--

And btw, the golden question: why do we care?
I care, because I think their opinions are going to make it difficult for western countries to peacefully accept China's growing clout (especially if it continues to grow), and may lead to unnecessary tensions based on a few rather anachronistic ideologies.
Others may care because it seems like a historical injustice that China is now being portrayed as the bad guy when they see history beyond having started in the 20th century.
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Look, long story short, doombreed: you're saying the west has its justified reasons for disliking and criticizing China.

I'm saying Chinese people have their justified reasons for disliking that criticism and responding in turn to point out hypocrisies.

Facets of their differing world views just cannot be reconciled, it's like two partners with differing personalities in a dysfunctional relationship. It's just not going to work out, or at best it will be strained.
The hard question to answer is which elements of each individual's world views should or shouldn't be considered reasonable.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'm going to tackle this part of your post. Because I think you got it wrong.
1) No one gives a shit. Really. Anyone that still holds the China =Communist = Bad idea is an ignorant idiots and their opinion don't really matter anyway. No one hates China just because you're communist. Really. Kids now days don't even know what communism means. In fact. It's kinda cool to be communists again.
2) Again. No one that matters really gives a shit. Most people don't vote anyway.
3) Who gives a damn? No one cares what the Chinese can or can not read. Really. Believe me.
4) Most people don't even know half of that stuff.

Since we're cutting to the chase I'll tell you why I think people don't like China.

It's tribal. Plain and simple. Before there's the Chinese there's the dirty Irish. Before them there's the bloody Scottsman. People will find a reason not to like you because you're in a different tribe. You're not going to get around that unless you're part of the team. Either joining willingly, like the anglo sphere, or through conquest like the Japanese and Koreans. The Japanese's reputation has been entirely rehabilitated because they're on the team now. It's got nothing to do with hypocrisy. It's the game we play. So don't be so sensitive about it.

There's no hypocrisy, there's no reasonable opinions or unreasonable opinions. There's just tribes. People tend to say that China needs better PR, or better marketing to influence the western audiance. I'm saying that's a lost cause. There's no reasonable argument a Man City fan can say to a Man United fan to convince him otherwise.

Well reasons 1-4 build up the tribal differences that you describe in the first place, and are in turn perpetuated by those differences.
My idea of differing world views is a similar idea to yours, only it is less all encompassing and includes the hope that world views can be reconciled in some way.

(And I think you must frequent different circles when you say 1-4 do not matter. In my experience those are the most mentioned reasons for either dislike or hostility towards China, from both individuals and media institutions)


So don't be so precious. Enjoy the game.

As a person I cannot simply "enjoy the game". Not when the "game" potentially involves millions or billions of peoples lives caused by differing worldviews because of a few stupid differences that no one is willing to broach or earnestly discuss. The game isn't being played for posterity's sake.

But another way of looking at it is to see criticism and counter criticism and pointing out hypocrisy as part of the game. In that sense, I refer back to my last post. The west can say what they feel is justified and Chinese people will respond with what they feel is justified and call out what they see as hypocrisy. Basically, everyone has an opinion that is justified. Big friggin whoop.
 
Top