Chinese Economics Thread

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
It depends on the status of the industry. There is absolutely zero reason why CATL should sell 'cheaply' just to 'win market share' because it's already at a stupid high market share globally.

It seems obvious to me, from the historical perspective, that it depends on the status of politics instead of industry. The correct time to focus on consumers instead of producers is when the external environment no longer confronts significant threats—when the nation can afford to "cash in" its accumulated effort because it's no longer afraid that doing so will put its consumers in danger. Individual consumers have no appreciation for national dangers; that is the responsibility of political leadership to prepare for, and in dangerous times this means the individual consumer must pay the price for collective security, because the alternative is disaster. But once the danger is past, then it's also the responsibility of political leadership to recognize that and stop immiserating the people for no gain.

As an analogy, an MMA fighter would be very negligent to party instead of training before a fight, no matter how difficult or painful his training might be. After he wins, then he can celebrate. But of course, not for too long, because there's always another fight. In this example, the US would be the defending champion who is now badly out of shape for the next fight. Having a fun time? Yes. In danger? Also yes.
 

pbd456

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is a lot of discussion on electricity consumption. But here is one example of US GDP contribution that I personally participate despite not really physically in USA.
Hotel loyalty program. Physically run hotels are most franchise like Hilton Marriott Hyatt and choice are US based programs. IHG is Uk and Accor is France(?). I have points in those programs that worth ten of thousands USD (accur and not spent). I dont think these companies earned US dollars with much electricity spend.

I am sure there are many franchise in other industries are generating usd for usa that require little electricity.


It is another china will have to work on. In fact, it did, it bought radisson but USA had destroyed most values by forcing the chain to sell the US based account.
 
From the perspective of global markets, then, the value the average Chinese is generating is lower than that of the average American, despite the seeming absurdity of a burger flipper from California generating equivalent value as a Huawei engineer.
Great, you have no idea how much a Huawei engineer makes.

It means Chinese individuals and companies are incentivized to sell to the West and to immigrate to the West, since they get a much better deal for the value of work.
Yes, it's better to be a dishwasher or delivery driver or barber or nail salon worker in the US than China. Not everybody can be an engineer.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is a lot of discussion on electricity consumption. But here is one example of US GDP contribution that I personally participate despite not really physically in USA.
Hotel loyalty program. Physically run hotels are most franchise like Hilton Marriott Hyatt and choice are US based programs. IHG is Uk and Accor is France(?). I have points in those programs that worth ten of thousands USD (accur and not spent). I dont think these companies earned US dollars with much electricity spend.

I am sure there are many franchise in other industries are generating usd for usa that require little electricity.


It is another china will have to work on. In fact, it did, it bought radisson but USA had destroyed most values by forcing the chain to sell the US based account.

Yes, that is the kind of accounting trick that is counted as produce in the US. It is basically an imaginary product.

Loyalty points like advertisement are already priced in when you paid for their rooms. You are basically double-counting when you tell me that new produce is being created with loyalty points.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
Once certain companies have achieved Huawei like status (top tech, top public support) then they would begin moving towards Huawei like pricing. It mostly depends on the ability for the majority of consumers to fork out that money though.

On a macro level, I believe it would be a couple decades depending on global circumstances. If China were to:
- Achieve conditions at home that allows the effective transition of labor that is or will become redundant to other sectors capable of giving a better standard of living
- Absolutely corner the majority of key industries in market share and tech stack dependency
- Stabilize her backyard (APAC region), and have Japan, SK, etc. return to China's orbit or at least have friendly policies
- Reduce / neutralize risk of outside interference or intervention (e.g. US)

Then I believe the conditions for higher 'personal purchasing power' can be met. Although, in reality, this is already happening at a slow pace (matches couple of decades time period) if you look at progress from 2008 onwards.

Most of the problems brought up (which are real gripes if you talk to people in China) just end up resolving naturally as development takes place.

This is an interesting framing - I would suggest that focusing on domestic purchasing power is a necessary condition to 'stabilization of backyard'.

Forget the US (they've gone full Karen), the other trade partners with China (regardless of the EU or the developed markets) are finding it increasingly difficult (domestic politics) to allow the locust-like Chinese competition. Examples of this include EU tariffs on Chinese EVs (which they are absolutely willing to negotiate), but more importantly,
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, and even
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.

What does it tell you when your most
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is telling you 'look man you can't keep doing this'?

You might say, well China should just invest locally in the target market. Of course they are, but these are not jobs for the domestic economy in China - and while China will obviously benefit from this via repatriation of profits; local citizens cannot benefit unless they could invest in the companies that made these profits.

Additionally, Chinese companies need to realize they cannot have foreign employees work as hard as domestic Chinese employees - see the latest
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.
 

virsuvei

New Member
Registered Member
No, they can afford to sell it for cheaper than for example some Western equivalents because they have better efficiency (they also made it for 'cheaper') during production. This is due to technological and business innovation, world-leading government support and policies, etc...

Just because they are selling it for cheaper, doesn't mean that they are getting "screwed over". Value creation is also about cost efficiency.

In fact, by pricing it cheaper, they attract more orders. But, at the end of the day, we still see that they are increasingly profitable, and taking over industry by industry. So, idk what are you about and what your problem is, it is clearly working. This is a standard good business practice btw.
We all know that GDP is a weird concept: Domestic work is excluded, imaginary rent on house is included as may many still funnier things. Anyway this value off all final purchases is helpful to characterize many trends and relations. Let's look at the basics:

GDP can be calculated in different ways. The value of all items sold for end use is total of money received:
Y = W + Q + T or wages + profits + (taxes less subsidies on production)
The total of payments done for them is:
Y = C + I + G + (X – M) or consumption + investments + government spending + net exports
By marking them equal and rearranging we get the Kalecki-Levy profit equation:
Q = I + (G – T) + (X – M) – (W –C) or Profits equals Investments + StateDeficit + TradeSurplus – PrivateSavings

The concept of NationalSavings has not been used above. It is calculated as Profits + PrivateSavings where Profits dominate by far.
Both in US and in China very large government deficits help to make total profits very large. In US the trade deficits works against this while in China the surplus helps a lot. The fact that large companies having a monopoly or oligopoly are making huge profits implies that countless small companies are struggling. High quotations in stock exchanges are not indicative of the health of the economy. Withering middle class and the misery of poor people are real indicators.

I myself have some difficulty in understanding how the Chinese workers have managed to get those marvelous rises after 2000 while Chinese unions are weak. A good guess is that as employers are in very weak position in China this helps tremendously the workers in swapping for better pay. In the US the regulatory caption by big money has helped to form legislation and to smash unions. Many industries have agreements between companies not to use wage increases to attract employees. This hurts the whole economy as actual demand remains smaller as it should. In China that is not possible.

The whining about too large Chinese savings rate is comical. Effectively that figure says that profits are large.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
This is an interesting framing - I would suggest that focusing on domestic purchasing power is a necessary condition to 'stabilization of backyard'.
Domestic purchasing power is exactly what China has in spades, hence why home ownership and disposable income keeps booming alongside the general economic boom.

When you can get all your needs from domestic production, you're not dependent on a low import prices to create an image of prosperity. You can just make that picture at home using your own goods.
Forget the US (they've gone full Karen), the other trade partners with China (regardless of the EU or the developed markets) are finding it increasingly difficult (domestic politics) to allow the locust-like Chinese competition. Examples of this include EU tariffs on Chinese EVs (which they are absolutely willing to negotiate), but more importantly,
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, and even
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.
Production is power, so of course others fear and envy China, they want China to give them slices of the pie so they themselves can grow their economy/tech scene etc. And the answer should be no, you can't have some of the pie unless you do something useful for China first, a fair swap.

No civilization with lesser industry ever won against one with greater productivity by shutting their doors. What happens is that once the tariffs/closed door policy/isolation makes things too unprofitable, the industrialized nation turns to putting her overcapacity into weapons and PMCs, then uses those to kick in the door, letting them continue to predate on foreign markets.
What does it tell you when your most
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is telling you 'look man you can't keep doing this'?

You might say, well China should just invest locally in the target market. Of course they are, but these are not jobs for the domestic economy in China - and while China will obviously benefit from this via repatriation of profits; local citizens cannot benefit unless they could invest in the companies that made these profits.

Additionally, Chinese companies need to realize they cannot have foreign employees work as hard as domestic Chinese employees - see the latest
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.
Those guys clearly just ran afoul of some local corrupt official's red tape. Look in any Brazilian slum and you'll find people living in 100x worse conditions, BYD contractors went overseas explicitly so they can find workers that are much more exploitable than ones in China. And it's a fair deal for people in Brazil or wherever, because the conditions are still better than not working at all. The subcontractor simply made a mistake not giving a sufficient sized red packet to whoever local department that stirs up this fake outrage in retaliation.
 
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