Chinese Economics Thread

Arij Javaid

Junior Member
Registered Member
You still don't get it, western politicians persist in their campaign to hold China down because they have hope. The hope is that demographic decline will crush China's economy no matter how well it is doing in all the things you mentioned in your post. All the achievements you mentioned will be wiped out in the long run if the effects of massive demographic decline are as bad as feared.

A decline in population from 1.4 billion to 800 million is a massive decline.

No, I am not saying the West will ever give up in their campaign to bring down China. But their fervor is fueled by hope of economic decline in China caused by demographic collapse.

What I am saying is, a person fight best when there is hope. When there is no hope, many just give up and try to reconcile with reality.

Right now, the western politicians are full of hope and confident of their future. They know that by present trends by 2100, they will have nearly double the population of China and similar if not better living standards. If that is so, their combined economy will dwarf that of China's. They believe if they can just hold back China for a few decades more then by 2100 they will dominate China once again, like they have done for the past 100 years.
West won't have population double that of China in any scenario in the next 100 years. Don't know how you reached that conclusion. West birth rates are similar to china's with immigration that leads to ethnic disturbances.

And by the way, who measures strength by population numbers?? Is India more powerful than US despite having 4 times the population??

It's absurd. Power is measured through technology and output and china is on course to dominate both.
 

donjasjit

New Member
Registered Member
West won't have population double that of China in any scenario in the next 100 years. Don't know how you reached that conclusion. West birth rates are similar to china's with immigration that leads to ethnic disturbances.

And by the way, who measures strength by population numbers?? Is India more powerful than US despite having 4 times the population??
By West, I mean all the nations who are ideologically locked with the U.S.

Look up 2100 projections and add USA+Europe+Japan+S Korea+ Australia+Canada and the figure will be close to double that of China with much better demographics.

Did you read my comment. I said the west would dominate because they would assume to have similar if not better living standards as China in 2100.

Regarding your India comment, if India had the same living standards as US, they would dominate too.

Look, I am not saying that China is doomed because of bad demographics. What I am saying is that demographics is a critical factor in the future of nations.

It should be treated as the most serious problem facing China. There is still a lot of time left for China to take action.
 

Arij Javaid

Junior Member
Registered Member
By West, I mean all the nations who are ideologically locked with the U.S.

Look up 2100 projections and add USA+Europe+Japan+S Korea+ Australia+Canada and the figure will be close to double that of China with much better demographics.

Did you read my comment. I said the west would dominate because they would assume to have similar if not better living standards as China in 2100.

Regarding your India comment, if India had the same living standards as US, they would dominate too.

Look, I am not saying that China is doomed because of bad demographics. What I am saying is that demographics is a critical factor in the future of nations.

It should be treated as the most serious problem facing China. There is still a lot of time left for China to take action.
Living standards have nothing to do with power. Norway has the best living standards. We all know its meagre significance in the world. Also 2100 is a long time. There are no permanent enemies or friends. All countries aligned with US are not confirmed to be align with them forever

Climate change will impact the world in the coming decades and water crisis will come in 2050-2060. Having a higher population would be no longer an asset due to changing world conditions.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You still don't get it, western politicians persist in their campaign to hold China down because they have hope. The hope is that demographic decline will crush China's economy no matter how well it is doing in all the things you mentioned in your post. All the achievements you mentioned will be wiped out in the long run if the effects of massive demographic decline are as bad as feared.

A decline in population from 1.4 billion to 800 million is a massive decline.

No, I am not saying the West will ever give up in their campaign to bring down China. But their fervor is fueled by hope of economic decline in China caused by demographic collapse.

What I am saying is, a person fight best when there is hope. When there is no hope, many just give up and try to reconcile with reality.

Right now, the western politicians are full of hope and confident of their future. They know that by present trends by 2100, they will have nearly double the population of China and similar if not better living standards. If that is so, their combined economy will dwarf that of China's. They believe if they can just hold back China for a few decades more then by 2100 they will dominate China once again, like they have done for the past 100 years.
No, I easily get what you're saying and I'm getting that you're wrong. The historical trend is that they will always find something or invent something to transfer their hope to once the last thing dissolves and I gave copious examples. But you have a very limited vision in that you think that once the current demographic "collapse" myth is over, they will have no more hope, because you don't see trends or the big picture. Your view is historically wrong because the West will make up something else to transfer their hopes to, as they have always done. If any of this is confusing you or you need some examples, reread my last post. It's all there. As a matter of fact, reading your "response," it's as if you have absolutely no ability to read or understand at all because my last post already covered and countered what you said here. You're the only one not getting it right now.
 
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SomaliUK

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
What does China do entirely with its trade surplus? Can some of it not be used to alleviate debt at home? Using it for purchasing hard assets abroad and building BRI is great but some of it can be used for domestic debt/property woes no?
 

In4ser

Junior Member
I expect demographic collapse in the West to accelerate as its deepening economics troubles will discourage further births.

It remains to be seen if it will be a net benefit of open borders and the flood of unskilled labor will be about to offset the falling demographics in the West. They could very much be a detriment especially in Europe since they often don’t integrate and provide productive value. Moreover it’s harder to attract investment and good quality migrants if your economy is doing poorly so it will be interesting to see what happens once widespread deflation starts to occur.
 

Umut

New Member
Registered Member
If you look at developed countries, you will see that they have economies proportional to the population. Maybe a small decrease will not cause problems, but it is clear that a large decrease in the population will cause economic shrinkage. I don't understand how such a simple fact can be denied. It is impossible to predict exactly what will happen in the future, but when the population decreases by a large amount and the average age rises, China will have lost much more power and will be at a disadvantage compared to the current population. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the population will remain at 700-800 million, it will become increasingly difficult to take measures against the decline of the population, as the number of young people of childbearing age is rapidly decreasing. In addition, the speed of scientific and technological development is also linked to the population . People do scientific research, not robots. When the population decreases, the pace of development will decrease and there will be a risk of losing technological leadership.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
If you look at developed countries, you will see that they have economies proportional to the population.
China is not a developed country; it is a developing country and much much more dynamic.
Maybe a small decrease will not cause problems, but it is clear that a large decrease in the population will cause economic shrinkage.
Over what period of time?
I don't understand how such a simple fact can be denied.
Because the premise is hazy and the statement isn't even a fact. Smaller populations can experience more robust growth than larger populations. Standard of living hits a brick wall when overcrowded. There are many more factors to a modern economy than young manpower.
It is impossible to predict exactly what will happen in the future, but when the population decreases by a large amount and the average age rises, China will have lost much more power and will be at a disadvantage compared to the current population.
Not true. China's average age has increased drastically over the decades and our population is about topped off, but we have never been at a greater advantage globally than we are at now, especially not compared to 30 years ago with much more robust demographics. And also, primitive economies are powered by younger demographics but advanced economies reliant on technological innovation have much greater use for older people. After all, would you expect a 20 year old college student or his 55 year old professor to do more heavy lifting at the technological front?
On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the population will remain at 700-800 million, it will become increasingly difficult to take measures against the decline of the population, as the number of young people of childbearing age is rapidly decreasing.
LOL That argument is basically saying once there is any contraction in the population, extinction becomes a slippery slope worry. Actually, in human history, many populations can successfully adjust into new and different sizes. It's a matter of balancing the resources, space, and standard of living with birth rate to achieve a new homeostasis.
In addition, the speed of scientific and technological development is also linked to the population . People do scientific research, not robots. When the population decreases, the pace of development will decrease and there will be a risk of losing technological leadership.
Actually, elite populations are better at scientific innovation than populations that rely on number. A smaller population with more resources per capita can enhance education (I've recently heard that Chinese middle school students are starting to learn computer coding) and result in a larger population of the elitely educated, whom are the drivers of innovation. This will be advantageous over a China with a much greater population but less resources, resulting in more people stopping at basic education. Furthermore, the lower population density allows for greater resources per capita including living space and that allows for much stronger talent retention and attraction from abroad. Having a massive population with low resources per capita is a recipe for emmigration of your educated elite, often to rival countries.

All in all, developed countries tend to innovate better than developing or impoverished countries regardless of number due to the advanced tools and high resources per capita that they have. China is transitioning into a new homeostasis as a developed country with high income and powerful tools. Rather than fear the weaker demographics (from a traditional agrarian standpoint), I rather think this will be a new beast, with the resource and enviromental advantages of the developed West but also with most of China's current population and all the competitive drive towards excellence of traditional Chinese culture.
 
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