Chinese Economics Thread

If one is interested in nominal GDP for the sake of it, a better question to ask is whether there were any policies during 2022 that would have actually significantly influenced the changes in currency strength and inflation around the world apart from domestic covid policies (even making the rather brash assumption that the Chinese government was willing to be the ones to make the risky decision to abandon it without sufficient indicators from the populace)

Unfortunately most people that believe short term fluctuations in nominal GDP are an indicator of the relative size and health of major economies wont really understand the nuances of the impact of interest rates, monetary policy, and fiscal policy.
 

Biscuits

Major
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Final 2022 GDP numbers are out, via the World Bank.

View attachment 115261

China is now falling behind, despite having a per capita GDP only 1/5th that of the US. This year was supposed to be different but given the very weak RMB and property sector, it looks like the US will pull ahead even further this year. This all calls into question the forecasts of China surpassing the US by 2030. It may in fact never happen.
You forgot to adjust based on inflation. US isn't catching up to China as of 2023, and there isn't any reality where US is anywhere close to having an overall larger economy.

Article from 3 weeks ago. Apologies if it has already been posted. Anyway I think it's unfortunate that China decided to stick with zero Covid for so long. 2022. was a dreadful year and a setback for China. Chinese GDP went from being 76% of US GDP in 2021. to 71% in 2022. I previously thought China would surpass US in late 2020s/early 2030s, now I believe mid 2030s are more likely.
Chinese gdp remains at around 125% of America, like it was last year. Having more inflation doesn't make a country's economy bigger, that's a retarded position to take.
Five years later, this bullishness seemed silly—not because China’s growth disappointed our expectations, but because its exchange rate, adjusted for inflation, abruptly stopped strengthening.
The article itself contains the answer. Why did the government intervene to press down the Yuan? Maybe this was a policy so that China can comfortably ride the next export market wave?

Because it's more important to own the global car and semiconductor market than it is to let the yuan run away, which doesn't confer any benefit to Chinese consumers?

Should China let it's currency appreciate by 200%, it would shoot past both EU and US combined in non inflation adjusted gdp. But obviously that would not mean a change in Chinese living standards, if anything, it would tank living standards as higher costs set in while the power of Chinese exports decrease.

And that is also the answer how China could easily "beat" America in non inflation adjusted gdp, even if all of China was Biden aged. Just let the Yuan run away. China can do that currency change tomorrow or it can do so in 2050, still doesn't change the reality that China has the largest economy in 2023, because you cannot evaluate an economy without evaluating inflation.
 
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luminary

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, By Country​

There is now a combined 139 million tons of plastic pollution in the world’s oceans, seas, and rivers, including the world’s number one most littered item: single-use cigarette filters.

1688215345638.png

Country or territorySectorLower estimateUpper estimate
ChinaFisheries & Aquaculture$57,250,000$954,200,000
ChinaGovernment$2,674,690,000$5,853,540,000
ChinaTourism$39,730,000$397,350,000
 

CMP

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, By Country​

There is now a combined 139 million tons of plastic pollution in the world’s oceans, seas, and rivers, including the world’s number one most littered item: single-use cigarette filters.

View attachment 115289

Country or territorySectorLower estimateUpper estimate
ChinaFisheries & Aquaculture$57,250,000$954,200,000
ChinaGovernment$2,674,690,000$5,853,540,000
ChinaTourism$39,730,000$397,350,000
Better that than the costs of countless chemical-containing trains collapsing into rivers every other week. The real cost of that in health and pollution is probably in the hundreds of billions...
 

fatzergling

Junior Member
Registered Member
And that is also the answer how China could easily "beat" America in non inflation adjusted gdp, even if all of China was Biden aged. Just let the Yuan run away. China can do that currency change tomorrow or it can do so in 2050, still doesn't change the reality that China has the largest economy in 2023, because you cannot evaluate an economy without evaluating inflation.
Japan in the 1980's had it's GDP "grow" 4x when the US forced Japan to appreciate the yen. The result was the end of it's economic miracle and the beginning of the stagnation that has continued till today.
While an appreciation of the Yuan would make China's nominal GDP grow fast, it would also hurt exports and rachet up imports, the same factors that lead to Japan's current economic stagnation.
Better to keep focus on growing the GDP in RMB than chase after GDP in USD. Better yet, focus on growing other economic indicators, like rail traffic, electricity production, loan #, etc. GDP will follow these indicators.
 
Better to keep focus on growing the GDP in RMB than chase after GDP in USD. Better yet, focus on growing other economic indicators, like rail traffic, electricity production, loan #, etc. GDP will follow these indicators.

Right, emphasize should be placed on metrics that actually reflect quality of life and standard of living. It may be difficult to quantitate or measure directly, but indicators that should be prioritized would be disposable income, purchasing power, housing cost to income ratios, life expectancy, infant mortality, price and availability of essential and consumer goods and services, and access to education and healthcare.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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, By Country​

There is now a combined 139 million tons of plastic pollution in the world’s oceans, seas, and rivers, including the world’s number one most littered item: single-use cigarette filters.

View attachment 115289

Country or territorySectorLower estimateUpper estimate
ChinaFisheries & Aquaculture$57,250,000$954,200,000
ChinaGovernment$2,674,690,000$5,853,540,000
ChinaTourism$39,730,000$397,350,000
"Greenbutts has developed a certified biodegradable, plant-based alternative to the world's number 1 plastic pollution problem, cellulose acetate fibers."

About that...

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The radiolabeled cellulose acetate with a DS of 1.85, 2.07, and 2.57 biodegraded to approximately 80%, 60%, and 40%, respectively, after only 14 days.

So basically they made absolutely no improvement since cellulose acetate is already biodegradable.
 

supercat

Major
These postponements of China’s date with economic destiny have cast some doubt on whether it will ever happen. The country’s productivity growth has slowed and its demographics have turned. China’s workforce is already shrinking, a decline that will probably accelerate in future decades. The UN projects that China’s population aged 15-64 will decline by more than 100m in the 2030s. If China’s GDP does not overtake America’s by the middle of that decade, it may never do so, according to Capital Economics, a research firm.
With 4x the population, China's economy will never overtake America's? This sounds delusional to me. Remember how much China's forex reserve has been underestimated? By the same token, the size of its economy probably has also been grossly underestimated. Anyway, the following piece will demonstrate why the quoted arguments are patently false.

China’s demographic doomsayers cite the wrong data​

Like Krugman’s predictive miss on the Asian Tigers, pundits aplenty are misreading the meaning of China’s Fourth Industrial Revolution

A meme popular among American pundits claims that China’s economy is doomed by a slowly declining population. More important than the aggregate Chinese population is the technically proficient Chinese population.

That has grown 20-fold, or by 2,000%, in the past 40 years. Other Asian countries, notably South Korea, previously achieved record-shattering productivity gains with similar enhancement of skills.

We’ve heard this argument before, applied to the Asian Tigers. The doomsayers had their heyday just before East Asia’s growth went vertical. Perhaps the worst economic prediction in recorded history was Paul Krugman’s 1994 assertion that the Asian economic miracle was a myth, and that the Asian Tigers—Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan—would crumble like the Soviet Union.

Krugman, an academic, Nobel Prize winner in economics and New York Times pundit, claimed in a celebrated
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that “the newly industrializing countries of Asia, like the Soviet Union of the 1950s, have achieved rapid growth in large part through an astonishing mobilization of resources. Once one accounts for the role of rapidly growing inputs in these countries’ growth, one finds little left to explain. Asian growth, like that of the Soviet Union in its high-growth era, seems to be driven by extraordinary growth in inputs like labor and capital rather than by gains in efficiency.”

The Asian Tigers, Krugman averred, were “running into diminishing returns.” But manufacturing productivity in South Korea rose more than five-fold between 1994 and 2012, an astonishing achievement.
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South Korea’s industrial work force fell during its great manufacturing boom, but it caught up to and in some cases overtook Japan in key industries, including semiconductors, displays and automobiles. No Japanese company today can compete with Samsung in computer chips.
4u58pcQ.jpg

In 1990, just 35% of South Korean high school graduates went on to some form of higher (tertiary) education; by 2010, the proportion stood at a remarkable 100%. Seoul has more PhD’s than any other city in the world. The South Koreans invested impressively in plant, equipment and infrastructure, but most of all, they educated their people to world standard.

China is now attempting on a gigantic scale what South Korea did during the late 1990s and early 2000s. Krugman’s diminishing returns argument of 1994 has resurfaced in the case of China: China has already moved most of its rural population to cities, and can’t count on the surge in labor supply that powered its growth during the 2000’s.
To be continued...
 
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