Chinese Economics Thread

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Final 2022 GDP numbers are out, via the World Bank.

View attachment 115261

China is now falling behind, despite having a per capita GDP only 1/5th that of the US. This year was supposed to be different but given the very weak RMB and property sector, it looks like the US will pull ahead even further this year. This all calls into question the forecasts of China surpassing the US by 2030. It may in fact never happen.
You finally figured it out? China isn't not interested in beating the US on paper terms (GDP on $ dollars). It prefers a lot more to keep RMB devalued to accelerate domestic industrial and tech upgrading

The real figure to pay attention for analysing the Chinese economy is the GDP PPP metric
 

Rafi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Final 2022 GDP numbers are out, via the World Bank.

View attachment 115261

China is now falling behind, despite having a per capita GDP only 1/5th that of the US. This year was supposed to be different but given the very weak RMB and property sector, it looks like the US will pull ahead even further this year. This all calls into question the forecasts of China surpassing the US by 2030. It may in fact never happen.
Bs.
 

Hitomi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Final 2022 GDP numbers are out, via the World Bank.

View attachment 115261

China is now falling behind, despite having a per capita GDP only 1/5th that of the US. This year was supposed to be different but given the very weak RMB and property sector, it looks like the US will pull ahead even further this year. This all calls into question the forecasts of China surpassing the US by 2030. It may in fact never happen.
LOL not even inflation adjusted?
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's because of the exchange rate. The yuan lost about 13.5% value vs. the dollar since 2022. The Chinese government has not significantly intervened, indicating they want the yuan to go lower in order to boost Chinese exports.

The West responded with tariffs, sanctions, and money printing. The result of which is inflation. Prices in the US have gone up 20% or more since 2021, similar in much of Europe. Normally this would cause the currency to decline - and indeed it has in Europe. But because the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, and is backed by the US taking over Russia as the main gas station for Europe, it seems to have held strong. Mainstream media sells this as a positive; but if you're actually in the US, you'll know that living standards are dropping for everyone but the super rich.
 

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Article from 3 weeks ago. Apologies if it has already been posted. Anyway I think it's unfortunate that China decided to stick with zero Covid for so long. 2022. was a dreadful year and a setback for China. Chinese GDP went from being 76% of US GDP in 2021. to 71% in 2022. I previously thought China would surpass US in late 2020s/early 2030s, now I believe mid 2030s are more likely.

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TWENTY YEARS ago China’s economy was only 14% as big as America’s (at market exchange rates). But it was not too soon for bold economists to begin speculating about when China’s GDP might eclipse America’s to become the largest in the world. In an influential paper published in 2003, Goldman Sachs, a bank, predicted that the decisive year would be 2041. By the time of the global financial crisis in 2007-09, that forecast looked timid. The gap between China and America had narrowed much faster than expected, because of America’s wobbles, China’s resilient growth and the steady appreciation of the yuan. By 2010, China’s GDP was 40% the size of America’s. Goldman Sachs brought the date of the eclipse forward from the early 2040s to the late 2020s. This newspaper was even less cautious. That year it created an interactive chart, which allowed readers to make their own predictions of when China would overtake America, brd on readers’ assumptions for growth, inflation and the exchange rate. Our “default” assumptions implied that China’s moment of economic triumph could arrive as early as 2019.

Five years later, this bullishness seemed silly—not because China’s growth disappointed our expectations, but because its exchange rate, adjusted for inflation, abruptly stopped strengthening. China clumsily devalued the yuan in 2015, spooking investors who feared further declines in the currency. The country’s date of arrival as the world’s largest economy receded into the distance. By the end of an eventful 2015, EIU, our sister company, forecast that China would not overtake America until 2032, eight years later than it had forecast 12 months earlier.

20230610_WOC449.png

These postponements of China’s date with economic destiny have cast some doubt on whether it will ever happen. The country’s productivity growth has slowed and its demographics have turned. China’s workforce is already shrinking, a decline that will probably accelerate in future decades. The UN projects that China’s population aged 15-64 will decline by more than 100m in the 2030s. If China’s GDP does not overtake America’s by the middle of that decade, it may never do so, according to Capital Economics, a research firm.
That prediction may be too gloomy. Other forecasting outfits, including the OECD, the Lowy Institute, and the Centre for Economics and Business Research, project that China’s GDP will overtake America’s at some point in the 2030s. EIU, for example, now thinks it will happen in 2039. That prediction is strikingly close to Goldman Sachs’s original date, set 20 years ago.
China’s economy has had its ups and downs over the past two decades. As a result, expectations of its fate have come full circle. Sometimes the future is easier to see from a distance.
1686223809872
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Article from 3 weeks ago. Apologies if it has already been posted. Anyway I think it's unfortunate that China decided to stick with zero Covid for so long. 2022. was a dreadful year and a setback for China. Chinese GDP went from being 76% of US GDP in 2021. to 71% in 2022.

Again, as mentioned by others, nominal GDP gains fluctuates based on currency strength and inflation, and nominal GDP size is certainly useful and important for bragging rights, however in terms of PPP the gains of China's GDP continued to be greater than that of US GDP in that period.

If one is interested in nominal GDP for the sake of it, a better question to ask is whether there were any policies during 2022 that would have actually significantly influenced the changes in currency strength and inflation around the world apart from domestic covid policies (even making the rather brash assumption that the Chinese government was willing to be the ones to make the risky decision to abandon it without sufficient indicators from the populace).
 

56860

Senior Member
Registered Member
Article from 3 weeks ago. Apologies if it has already been posted. Anyway I think it's unfortunate that China decided to stick with zero Covid for so long. 2022. was a dreadful year and a setback for China. Chinese GDP went from being 76% of US GDP in 2021. to 71% in 2022. I previously thought China would surpass US in late 2020s/early 2030s, now I believe mid 2030s are more likely.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

TWENTY YEARS ago China’s economy was only 14% as big as America’s (at market exchange rates). But it was not too soon for bold economists to begin speculating about when China’s GDP might eclipse America’s to become the largest in the world. In an influential paper published in 2003, Goldman Sachs, a bank, predicted that the decisive year would be 2041. By the time of the global financial crisis in 2007-09, that forecast looked timid. The gap between China and America had narrowed much faster than expected, because of America’s wobbles, China’s resilient growth and the steady appreciation of the yuan. By 2010, China’s GDP was 40% the size of America’s. Goldman Sachs brought the date of the eclipse forward from the early 2040s to the late 2020s. This newspaper was even less cautious. That year it created an interactive chart, which allowed readers to make their own predictions of when China would overtake America, brd on readers’ assumptions for growth, inflation and the exchange rate. Our “default” assumptions implied that China’s moment of economic triumph could arrive as early as 2019.

Five years later, this bullishness seemed silly—not because China’s growth disappointed our expectations, but because its exchange rate, adjusted for inflation, abruptly stopped strengthening. China clumsily devalued the yuan in 2015, spooking investors who feared further declines in the currency. The country’s date of arrival as the world’s largest economy receded into the distance. By the end of an eventful 2015, EIU, our sister company, forecast that China would not overtake America until 2032, eight years later than it had forecast 12 months earlier.

20230610_WOC449.png

These postponements of China’s date with economic destiny have cast some doubt on whether it will ever happen. The country’s productivity growth has slowed and its demographics have turned. China’s workforce is already shrinking, a decline that will probably accelerate in future decades. The UN projects that China’s population aged 15-64 will decline by more than 100m in the 2030s. If China’s GDP does not overtake America’s by the middle of that decade, it may never do so, according to Capital Economics, a research firm.
That prediction may be too gloomy. Other forecasting outfits, including the OECD, the Lowy Institute, and the Centre for Economics and Business Research, project that China’s GDP will overtake America’s at some point in the 2030s. EIU, for example, now thinks it will happen in 2039. That prediction is strikingly close to Goldman Sachs’s original date, set 20 years ago.
China’s economy has had its ups and downs over the past two decades. As a result, expectations of its fate have come full circle. Sometimes the future is easier to see from a distance.
1686223809872
Why are people losing their minds over a relatively useless measure of economic power?

As others have pointed out, the increase in nominal GDP disparity is purely a result of depreciating RMB. Why did the RMB depreciate? Because US jacked up interest rates like crazy during the last 12 months. Once these interest rates are lowered, RMB will appreciate again and the nominal GDP gap will close.

In real terms, China outgrew US last year (3% vs 2.1%) even with lockdowns. This year, China will massively outgrow the US in real terms (5.5-6.5% vs 1-2%). This is reflected in PPP, which unlike nominal GDP, accounts for fluctuations in exchange rates. By this more accurate measure, China will increase its lead over the US by over 6 trillion in 2023.

k21bi15pubxoltc41yaes5f7co9l1vm.png



Nominal GDP is a coping mechanism for westerners who don't understand how exchange rates work. This coping mechanism will break down horribly should China decide to appreciate the RMB to its true value. It could happen tonight, but it won't, because China isn't interested in winning imaginary dick-measuring contests.

There are a million and one better metrics for measuring economic power and influence: PPP, trading partners, manufacturing output, market shares, etc. Don't get caught up in nominal GDP because reddit told you it's important.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Why are people losing their minds over a relatively useless measure of economic power?

As others have pointed out, the increase in nominal GDP disparity is purely a result of depreciating RMB. Why did the RMB depreciate? Because US jacked up interest rates like crazy during the last 12 months. Once these interest rates are lowered, RMB will appreciate again and the nominal GDP gap will close.

In real terms, China outgrew US last year (3% vs 2.1%) even with lockdowns. This year, China will massively outgrow the US in real terms (5.5-6.5% vs 1-2%). This is reflected in PPP, which unlike nominal GDP, accounts for fluctuations in exchange rates. By this more accurate measure, China will increase its lead over the US by over 6 trillion in 2023.

k21bi15pubxoltc41yaes5f7co9l1vm.png



Nominal GDP is a coping mechanism for westerners who don't understand how exchange rates work. This coping mechanism will break down horribly should China decide to appreciate the RMB to its true value. It could happen tonight, but it won't, because China isn't interested in winning imaginary dick-measuring contests.

There are a million and one better metrics for measuring economic power and influence: PPP, trading partners, manufacturing output, market shares, etc. Don't get caught up in nominal GDP because reddit told you it's important.
+1, its all about PPP, market share and social indicators. The big question is, with much of the world dedollarizing and domestic inflation, what can you actually buy? all the money printing isn't putting any money into the hands of the people either, they're going to the banks AKA the 1%. that's why stocks have been crazy even as life expectancy declines and maternal mortality is on par with Syria.
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
Nominal GDP is a coping mechanism for westerners who don't understand how exchange rates work. This coping mechanism will break down horribly should China decide to appreciate the RMB to its true value. It could happen tonight, but it won't, because China isn't interested in winning imaginary dick-measuring contests.
And imagine the meltdowns when they find out they can't use nominal OR nominal per capita any more

1688200833857.png
 
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