Chinese Economics Thread

[KYli]

I have dealt with many Indians and I have not found that to be the case at all. It seems that you have personal grievances with Indians.

Nobody is asking China to help India in anyway. I spend my time on this forum to build China up and not to tear other global south nations down. I don't need to put down India to build up China.

Why do you assume I have grievances with Indians. I have many Indian friends during college. However, from my business experience with Indians, Indians don't tend to keep their promises. I have dealt with Arabs and Pakistani and many different ethnicity but only Indians would agree with a deal then break it and then agree with it again and break it again.

You have a favorable opinion of India which is perfectly fine. But why do you demand other members to be nice towards India especially after all those political, military and economic confrontation between China and India during the last few years. I can't speak for others but I don't belittle India. However, I disrespect India as a great power. India as a nation is a total failure. Until India fixed its issues and made meaningful progress of development, I won't think highly of India and would continue to dismiss it as a great power.

that supply chain is just for xiaomi phones sold in India and Apple phones in general. There is still plenty of supply chain left in China for Chinese phone companies.

The reality is if you want to gain market share in any country with ambitions to industrialize, you need to build factories there. Again, that's why BYD is going to build factories in Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia. If you want to dominate sales of these large industries with national importance, then you have to be prepared to employ locals.

Again, I don't have a problem with companies opening factories in other countries as long as they could make a ton of money. Xiaomi didn't make much of money out of India. And Huawei and ZTE have already gotten screwed out of hundreds of millions just a few years before Xiaomi entered Indian market. That means Xiaomi got nothing out of building factories in India and providing India with a complete supply chain. In addition, Xiaomi didn't learn the lesson of Huawei.

Again if Chinese companies can make a ton of money like Ford, GM, VW, Toyota, Nike, Adidas, Chase, HSBC etc did when these companies invested in China then I am all for it. But if companies acted like Xiaomi that made no money and got fined hundreds of millions and at the same time invested and bought the complete smartphone supply chain to India then it is a big no no.

I think you should just relax. Chinese companies are pretty good with maintain supply chain needed for China's own needs. But at some point, you cannot continue to run these astronomical trade surplus against every other nation or they won't want to trade with you anymore

I don't know why you think I am not relaxing. I just disagree with some of your beliefs.

China used to run a huge deficit with Japan, SK, and Taiwan and still do with Taiwan. And China is still running deficit with many commodities and agriculture export countries. China was able to cope with such trade deficit through surplus from other trading partners.

Countries running deficit with China can run a surplus from other countries to make up the difference. And they can double down on exporting farming and commodities.

I think the current trade surplus of China is more due to the fact that many Western countries restricted exports but have nothing to offer and continue to ramp up imports. For other countries such as Vietnam and India, many of their imports are components of value added exports that don't bring much burden to the economy.

 

[ansy1968]

Why do you assume I have grievances with Indians. I have many Indian friends during college. However, from my business experience with Indians, Indians don't tend to keep their promises. I have dealt with Arabs and Pakistani and many different ethnicity but only Indians would agree with a deal then break it and then agree with it again and break it again.

Bro except for Muslim Indians which is very different attitude wise and their business practices, also they try to disassociate themselves with the majority India Hindu, Like you said after having a bad business experience with them (they talk big, order less and try to haggle you with prices until you're exhausted then never ordered, the few things they ordered were never paid back) , I promises myself never again!!!!

 

[Dolcevita]

Why do you assume I have grievances with Indians. I have many Indian friends during college. However, from my business experience with Indians, Indians don't tend to keep their promises. I have dealt with Arabs and Pakistani and many different ethnicity but only Indians would agree with a deal then break it and then agree with it again and break it again.

Bro except for Muslim Indians which is very different attitude wise and their business practices, also they try to disassociate themselves with the majority India Hindu, Like you said after having a bad business experience with them (they talk big, order less and try to haggle you with prices until you're exhausted then never ordered, the few things they ordered were never paid back) , I promises myself never again!!!!

This is funny as I was going to comment on the same experience. Experience tells me to generally not trust them with anything of significance.

 

[henrik]

If you ever have dealt with Indians, then you probably should know that Indians are the most difficult people to do business with. Just because India is part of global south, it doesn't mean we should give it some slack. Beside, India is a major rival for China which it has aligned its interests with the West to contain China. More importantly, after so many Chinese apps that were shut down by India, so many Chinese companies including State owned ones that never got paid and so many Chinese companies that got fined by India for tax issues such as Xiaomi. I just don't see why China should help India in anyway or form even if we are looking at purely business POV.

I never see it a problem for Chinese companies to open factories in ASEAN as long as there are enough potential to justify such investment. I just disagree that Chinese government should encourage such investments. Retaining the supply chain is still the upmost important especially as there are still millions of Chinese that are looking for good paying manufacturing jobs.

When Xiaomi moved its factories to India for local business, it didn't just move its own factories but also factories of its supply chain. When Apple forced Chinese devices manufacturing companies to move factories to Vietnam, it also asked the whole Chinese supply chain to move to Vietnam.

Moving factories as purely business decision with good reasons are justified but in no way and form should Chinese government encourage such investment because after your factories moved to other countries then your supply chain would also follow them. Why should China make the same mistake the Western powers make.

Indians are not known for creating win-win situation. They would try to attract your investments, copy your technology and supply chain, then accuse you of violating various regulations.

 

[coolgod]

why are people so insistence on putting down India on this forum? Both countries can develop on their own timeline. If we think that China has plenty of room for growth with automation, then we shouldn't care about what western media says about jobs leaving China to go to India and ASEAN.

Have you considered the possibility that China wants the whole world to develop while India's plan of development run oppose to that?

Which developing country in Asia hasn't join in China's BRI? Which country first created China's debt trap narrative, then keeps on promoting it. Which country base their foreign policy on the crab mentality, especially towards China?

This is why I think Chinese netizen's 穷逼帝国主义 description of India is very apt.

 

[Blitzo]

Why do you assume I have grievances with Indians. I have many Indian friends during college. However, from my business experience with Indians, Indians don't tend to keep their promises. I have dealt with Arabs and Pakistani and many different ethnicity but only Indians would agree with a deal then break it and then agree with it again and break it again.

You have a favorable opinion of India which is perfectly fine. But why do you demand other members to be nice towards India especially after all those political, military and economic confrontation between China and India during the last few years. I can't speak for others but I don't belittle India. However, I disrespect India as a great power. India as a nation is a total failure. Until India fixed its issues and made meaningful progress of development, I won't think highly of India and would continue to dismiss it as a great power.

Again, I don't have a problem with companies opening factories in other countries as long as they could make a ton of money. Xiaomi didn't make much of money out of India. And Huawei and ZTE have already gotten screwed out of hundreds of millions just a few years before Xiaomi entered Indian market. That means Xiaomi got nothing out of building factories in India and providing India with a complete supply chain. In addition, Xiaomi didn't learn the lesson of Huawei.

Again if Chinese companies can make a ton of money like Ford, GM, VW, Toyota, Nike, Adidas, Chase, HSBC etc did when these companies invested in China then I am all for it. But if companies acted like Xiaomi that made no money and got fined hundreds of millions and at the same time invested and bought the complete smartphone supply chain to India then it is a big no no.


I don't know why you think I am not relaxing. I just disagree with some of your beliefs.

China used to run a huge deficit with Japan, SK, and Taiwan and still do with Taiwan. And China is still running deficit with many commodities and agriculture export countries. China was able to cope with such trade deficit through surplus from other trading partners.

Countries running deficit with China can run a surplus from other countries to make up the difference. And they can double down on exporting farming and commodities.

I think the current trade surplus of China is more due to the fact that many Western countries restricted exports but have nothing to offer and continue to ramp up imports. For other countries such as Vietnam and India, many of their imports are components of value added exports that don't bring much burden to the economy.

The purpose of SDF isn't to air grievances about other matters whether it is about other nations or other governments, especially if it is irrelevant to the thread's topic.

The fact of the matter is that tphuang's post 27409 was perfectly reasonable -- it was a gentle way of telling people to stop bringing up other nations (India in this case) to a thread that doesn't make any sense, while correctly pointing out that people in this forum are developing an excessive degrading view of India that is unnecessary and borders on chauvinism.


It doesn't matter whether India as a nation or government or whether other Indian communities (defense forums or otherwise) are even more hostile to China and/or your own perceived interests and values --- this forum isn't here to match them, we have our own standards.

 

[Minm]

Indian people shouldn't be insulted for no reason. But the fact is that India is one of few countries in the world that genuinely have the potential to be a danger to China. If the American dream of moving manufacturing out of China and into India actually works, that could end up being very damaging to the Chinese economy and security.

The experience of economic development in both East Asia and Europe is that light industry such as textiles come first, which forms the basis for heavy industry and finally more high tech products. If India were to displace China in the textile industry or other sectors of low end manufacturering, China would be less rich and at more risk.

So China should oppose development in India, if Chinese companies can't benefit from this development and are in fact threatened by it. Luckily, India under its current political system is its own biggest enemy. Let's hope it stays this way

 

[KYli]

The purpose of SDF isn't to air grievances about other matters whether it is about other nations or other governments, especially if it is irrelevant to the thread's topic.

Firstly, as a Mod, you and tphuang have the right to request an end of any off topic discussion. I am perfectly willing to comply as long as you guys say so.

Secondly, tphuang said that China should invest in other countries and move low end manufacturing to other countries including India. I respectfully disagree. I have given my reasons why such suggestions are a bad idea especially for India. I don't know why you think pointing out India as not an ideal place for investment equals to grievances. I respectfully disagree with your accusation.

The fact of the matter is that tphuang's post 27409 was perfectly reasonable -- it was a gentle way of telling people to stop bringing up other nations (India in this case) to a thread that doesn't make any sense, while correctly pointing out that people in this forum are developing an excessive degrading view of India that is unnecessary and borders on chauvinism.

I don't have a problem for tphuang to point out to other member that that member is off topic and shouldn't bring India into the discussion. However, it doesn't mean I have to agree with tphuang's second part of post that suggesting moving low end manufacturing to other countries is a good idea.

You are using tphuang's first part of his post to justify his second part of his post which is not fair or reasonable.

It doesn't matter whether India as a nation or government or whether other Indian communities (defense forums or otherwise) are even more hostile to China and/or your own perceived interests and values --- this forum isn't here to match them, we have our own standards.

I come here to discuss and engage in discussion. As a Mod, you can ask me to be respectful to other members or any countries. It is also reasonable to request members not engaging in off topic discussion. And I certainly agree that it is unfair to bring India into discussion that have nothing or little to do with India.

However, it is unreasonable to request me to conform to your beliefs. This forum has standards but it can't expect members to accept your imposed values and thinking. You can only request members to debate in a civilized, respectful, and not off topic manner. No more or no less.

Therefore, my reply against tphuang for his thinking that moving low end manufacturing to other countries including India is not off topic or disrespectful. In addition, my view that India is not a good place to do business is reasonable assessment. And my view that India has failed to fulfill its potential is not wrong and shouldn't be considered a way to degrading India. You can't expect me not to express my views in discussion as long as it is in civilized, respectful, not off topic manner..

 

[ansy1968]

Indians are not known for creating win-win situation. They would try to attract your investments, copy your technology and supply chain, then accuse you of violating various regulations.

They talk highly of themselves, they are like Peacocks trying to show off their wealth BUT beneath it they have none.

 

[Overbom]

Indians are not known for creating win-win situation. They would try to attract your investments, copy your technology and supply chain, then accuse you of violating various regulations.

Exactly. That's what happened with Xiaomi as well. "Oh look at that big market, big moneys"

The moment they built the factories and moved the supply chain, India "fined" (i.e. stole) almost $1 billion from Xiaomi. So not only Xiaomi didn't get any profit from India, it actually lost a lot of money

That's why India is a failed country. It doesn't do win-win, it does heads, I win, tails, you lose. It thinks that it is the hegemon the US and do the same thing which is ridiculous. That's why India is often mockingly called the "supapowe"

For all the propaganda the US has been throwing about China being uninvestable the past decades "steal IP, steal money", companies never cared because they knew by themselves that the US Gov was lying.

What about India though? Western govs try to praise India and build it as a good investment location but companies don't buy it because they know the truth, India is going to steal their money the moment their factories are complete.

That's the difference between China and India

---

I don't have anything personal against India, its just business. Until India proves that its a credible and welcoming country for foreign companies and investment, that's how things will remain. As for wishing them all the best, sorry, they are a hostile country. Not hating them and not wishing their destruction is good enough all things considered

In case anyone is offended, I am talking about the Indian government and political class not the common Indian people