Chinese Economics Thread

Blitzo

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One issue I don’t often see mentioned is that COVID handling is an alternative metric for government performance evaluation in lieu of economic performance. This could prompt underperforming local officials to take very drastic measures to ensure he/she performs up to par.

I don't think that's an issue, but just operating as designed.
If the CPC and central govt values COVID handling and mitigation of cases and deaths as sociopolitically desirable and important, then naturally it will be a metric of measuring government performance.

Ultimately, the end question of this debate is always "why is COVID management important" or putting it another way "how many cases and deaths is the Chinese government willing to tolerate" which is fundamentally a sociopolitical question.
 

j17wang

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As I see it, their current COVID policy has already changed somewhat compared to earlier this year, and has softened a little bit but it is unaffordable to remove.

I've posted a variation of this below elsewhere, but ultimately I think having covid policy be driven by politics (which in turn is an extension of societal expectations) is a prudent move.

The big picture was and is always what an uncontained covid outbreak would do for sociopolitical stability, in the absence of sufficient nationwide large scale healthcare planning and public relations messaging.

If people acknowledge and agree that the central government and CPC authority is the final upstream determinant of China's ability to carry out public governance and provide public services, to enable strategic planning in all sectors of China's interests (economics, industry, politics, military, sovereignty), then I'm surprised that people would be so dismissive about the importance of approaching a covid outbreak with more conservative and more cautious measures that allow for greater control and prevent uncontrolled transmissions and outbreaks that could challenge the sociopolitical fabric of the nation in a manner and result in an unforced errors that the central government and CPC would rather do without.



Because at the end of the day, the consequences of uncontrolled COVID outbreak at a regional or nationwide level and the sickness and the deaths it would cause (both directly and indirectly), and the subsequent sociopolitical instability it could cause and the potential to undermine govt authority and CPC rule, is still a far larger threat and presents a far wider array of unknowns than their current chosen option.
This isn't even considering the longer term healthcare consequences of long covid and the economic effects of suffering from a uncontained covid sweeping across the nation.


There are no good choices here, but the better choice is still one where CPC authority and CPC rule is able to be more credibly maintained and where the option to downregulate and tweak restrictions from more severe to more lax still exists.
Because once you reach uncontained covid outbreaks at a regional or national level, it becomes far, far more difficult to impose more severe restrictions to reverse an outbreak, and to in turn contain sociopolitical consequences.


Ultimately, a slightly healthier GDP or financial system won't mean much if you are flirting with sociopolitical instability and the risk of opening the CPC to significant risk or having its legitimacy attacked and exploited by other actors or elements.

The zero covid policy should be removed once sufficient effective vaccination/availability of COVID drugs/strain mutation lowers aggregate fatality rates to 0.1% under an uncontrolled scenario (which is NOT Shanghai, which with lockdowns went into controlled mode).

I'm unsure what current models are projecting (previously 2 million fatalities in uncontrolled scenario) but if the number can be reasonably predicted as under a million it should result in a re-think of current policies. Zero COVID is like a rolling drag on China's GDP so needs to be removed.
 

Blitzo

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The zero covid policy should be removed once sufficient effective vaccination/availability of COVID drugs/strain mutation lowers aggregate fatality rates to 0.1% under an uncontrolled scenario (which is NOT Shanghai, which with lockdowns went into controlled mode).

I'm unsure what current models are projecting (previously 2 million fatalities in uncontrolled scenario) but if the number can be reasonably predicted as under a million it should result in a re-think of current policies. Zero COVID is like a rolling drag on China's GDP so needs to be removed.

Well, my point is that I'm sure the CPC has a number in mind that they consider to be a fatality rate and fatality count that is sufficiently low, but we aren't there yet. What that number may be, we cannot guess.

I also think calling it zero covid is constructive now -- the strategy they are pursuing is one of "containing uncontrolled spread".
 

Overbom

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I also think calling it zero covid is constructive now -- the strategy they are pursuing is one of "containing uncontrolled spread".
The Covid Zero policy has actually gotten more relaxed during the year. So January's Zero Covid and September's Zero Covid is very different.

Even though the name remains the same (for propaganda purposes) we see a relaxation of the policy at all levels. Obviously not at the level people want here, but there is clear trend that can be noticed.

I predict that in the following months the same script will happen. "Zero Covid" will remain as the official policy but down at the ground it will be substantially different (i.e. eased) in 6 months
 

Blitzo

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The Covid Zero policy has actually gotten more relaxed during the year. So January's Zero Covid and September's Zero Covid is very different.

Even though the name remains the same (for propaganda purposes) we see a relaxation of the policy at all levels. Obviously not at the level people want here, but there is clear trend that can be noticed.

I predict that in the following months the same script will happen. "Zero Covid" will remain as the official policy but down at the ground it will be substantially different (i.e. eased) in 6 months

That is what I'm saying as well.

I think calling it zero covid at this stage is a bit alarmist, and more accurately it should be called "containment/prevention of uncontrolled spread". Or simply "controlling covid".
 

Overbom

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Despite very strong exports and large trade surplus, the yuan-dollar exchange rate has fallen almost ten percent, approaching 7 now
The reason for this happening is the FED raising rates. If you don't believe me, check out the exchange safe of currencies of other countries relative to the dollar. I am just going to say this, If the yuan has fallen by only "almost 10%" then that is really good compared to what's happening in the rest of the world

Large local fiscal deficits in the majority of the provinces
This is also because of the housing market collapse. Local gov got a lot of money from property sales, so now that the previous model of the property market is being purposely killed off by the CPC, obviously local governments are going to run large deficits.

As a countermeasure the central government is releasing special bonds to them in order to weather this storm.


So obviously for these 2 issues that you mentioned that are caused by Covid, it is not correct. Covid as usual is a good excuse, and I admit it is partly contributing to the problems, but the biggest problem is that China is now facing structural economic headwinds which necessitate a change of its economic model. These things can't happen quickly and without cost.


Something of a fun fact, I don't have the source for this unfortunately as it has been a long time ago, but I remember in 2015 when Xi wanted to implement radical reforms to change China's economic model and faced such resistance that he had to run away with his tail between his legs (People's Daily was chef's kiss at that period lol).

Now you can see why in the 19th Party Congress Xi seemed like a person who was in a literal crusade for "gathering power" lol. Its only recently that Xi has managed to get some power in order to start doing some necessary reforms. IMO the biggest difference will be his 3rd term. I expect a significant acceleration on changing the economy in the next year
 

tankphobia

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The reason for this happening is the FED raising rates. If you don't believe me, check out the exchange safe of currencies of other countries relative to the dollar. I am just going to say this, If the yuan has fallen by only "almost 10%" then that is really good compared to what's happening in the rest of the world


This is also because of the housing market collapse. Local gov got a lot of money from property sales, so now that the previous model of the property market is being purposely killed off by the CPC, obviously local governments are going to run large deficits.

As a countermeasure the central government is releasing special bonds to them in order to weather this storm.


So obviously for these 2 issues that you mentioned that are caused by Covid, it is not correct. Covid as usual is a good excuse, and I admit it is partly contributing to the problems, but the biggest problem is that China is now facing structural economic headwinds which necessitate a change of its economic model. These things can't happen quickly and without cost.


Something of a fun fact, I don't have the source for this unfortunately as it has been a long time ago, but I remember in 2015 when Xi wanted to implement radical reforms to change China's economic model and faced such resistance that he had to run away with his tail between his legs (People's Daily was chef's kiss at that period lol).

Now you can see why in the 19th Party Congress Xi seemed like a person who was in a literal crusade for "gathering power" lol. Its only recently that Xi has managed to get some power in order to start doing some necessary reforms. IMO the biggest difference will be his 3rd term. I expect a significant acceleration on changing the economy in the next year
Now that real estate will no longer be the hot commodity it once was, where will China put down all it's excess production? Even though the real estate industry was never really sustainable, it created an outlet for whole industries which would otherwise have nowhere to sell their goods (concrete/steel), maybe belt and road 2.0?
 
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