Chinese Economics Thread

[56860]

Disagree. Maoist China started worse than India and overpowered India in every metric within 10 years including literacy, average life expectancy, GDP per capita, every single measure of technology, etc. India had a slightly higher GDP per capita only for a few years in the 1980s (after Mao died) due to a currency devaluation.

North Korea had a higher GDP per capita than South Korea for 20 years until US pumping billions into South Korea made a difference. Even today they still have a better ground force and space program than India.

You have to realize that in 1950-1970 the US was 40% of global GDP. They could pick and choose economic winners at will.

Is it a coincidence that those first 10 years of phenomenal progress were mainly derived from the Party operating as a whole as opposed to a single individual - in other words, a competent authoritarian government? Then Emperor Mao and His Cult of Personality comes along, purges the Party, and turns China into what can only be described as an utter fustercluck - GLF, Four Pests Campaign, and the disastrous 10 year Cultural Revolution - the scars of which China is still trying to heal from today. That's incompetent authoritarianism for you, and yes, in most cases it is far worse than incompetent democracy, because at least in a democracy there are established methods of removing those from power.

Don't even get me started on North Korea, just read CPC's assessment of the Kim Dynasty:

While the CCP is probably the organization with most access to North Korea, writing about North Korea is tightly circumscribed. The few reports accessible to the general public are those about North Korean economic reforms. While Chinese analysts of North Korea tend to speak positively of North Korea in public, in official discussions circa 2008 they show much disdain for North Korea's economic system, the cult of personality which pervades society, the Kim family, the idea of hereditary succession in a socialist state, the security state, the use of scarce resources on the Korean People's Army and the general impoverishment of the North Korean people. Circa 2008, there are those analysts who compare the current situation of North Korea with that of China during the Cultural Revolution. In general, the CCP considers the WPK and North Korea to be negative examples of a communist ruling party and socialist state.

In fact the CPC has actively encouraged WPK to opening up to no avail:

Over the years, the CCP has tried to persuade the Workers' Party of Korea (or WPK, North Korea's ruling party) to introduce economic reforms by showing them key economic infrastructure in China. For instance, in 2006 the CCP invited the WPK general secretary Kim Jong-il to Guangdong to showcase the success economic reforms have brought China.

The key difference between Mao vs Deng, Jiang, Hu and Xi is that the latter four did not rule as the Emperor of China. Mao, whilst a phenomenal revolutionary, did not understand the economics behind his policies and at times this one man show led China down a very dark path.

 

[Michaelsinodef]

Is it a coincidence that those first 10 years of phenomenal progress were mainly derived from the Party operating as a whole as opposed to a single individual - in other words, a competent authoritarian government? Then Emperor Mao and His Cult of Personality comes along, purges the Party, and turns China into what can only be described as an utter fustercluck - GLF, Four Pests Campaign, and the disastrous 10 year Cultural Revolution - the scars of which China is still trying to heal from today. That's incompetent authoritarianism for you, and yes, in most cases it is far worse than incompetent democracy, because at least in a democracy there are established methods of removing those from power.

Nah, don't put the GLF, Four pests campaign together with the cultural revolution. Yes there definitely were problems with those 2, but can't be compared to the cultural revolution, which basically had China stagnate for 10 years (didn't happen before).

With that said, ever since the end of it and with Deng, things have stabilized and the 'successor' system have improved immensely.

Although like the CPC itself admitted, corruption could have toppled the party and government, but well, with the anti-corruption campaign, not a problem anymore (or well not that big of a problem, still more to do in terms of lower leveled officials).

Don't even get me started on North Korea, just read CPC's assessment of the Kim Dynasty:


In fact the CPC has actively encouraged WPK to opening up to no avail:


The key difference between Mao vs Deng, Jiang, Hu and Xi is that the latter four did not rule as the Emperor of China. Mao, whilst a phenomenal revolutionary, did not understand the economics behind his policies and at times this one man show led China down a very dark path.

I think with Kim Jong-un, we are actually seeing some changes with NK, although the pace seems to be that of a snail in comparison with China (market reforms and the likes).

Also, far better relationship with China (got pretty bad under Kim Jong-il).

 

[Nobo]

That's incompetent authoritarianism for you, and yes, in most cases it is far worse than incompetent democracy, because at least in a democracy there are established methods of removing those from power.

How? Which established methods?
Who removes them? What qualification they have to remove? How do you verify it?

Every state running system has advantage & drawbacks. However , state can't be run based on fantasy of government bazaar. Definition of democracy is great in theory. However, it never has been established in real world.

First, democracy says it is by people, of people -- Which people? When you get ill, you go to people, people with qualification to treat illness, otherwise known as doctors. You don't ask every people in country to choose a medicine for you, then take the one chosen by most.

Second, votes,choices & majority was never mentioned in democracy. Where did those come from?

A country is not a hotel, and a government is not a customer care service.Methods of getting into power & removing those who are in power should be developed by individual country based on their culture.

However, western based marketing stunts are simply ridiculous. You cant get a job without achieving certain educational credentials. How does a person being 18+ becomes automatically eligible to chose highest form of government that in turn runs sectors such as defense,economic, social development? Practically people are controlling government without putting their azz on line, the people who doesnt care about country,only themselves.

 

[56860]

Nah, don't put the GLF, Four pests campaign together with the cultural revolution. Yes there definitely were problems with those 2, but can't be compared to the cultural revolution, which basically had China stagnate for 10 years (didn't happen before).

The point is all three were chiefly caused by Emperor Mao and His Personality Cult. I am trying to point out why having one single dude on top with all the power can wreak a lot of havoc.

With that said, ever since the end of it and with Deng, things have stabilized and the 'successor' system have improved immensely.

I agree, in fact I think China has pretty much perfected the authoritarian model. Today the Emperor of China is the CPC itself. The CPC cannot be lobbied to favor any segment of the population unlike political parties in democratic systems, and with over 90 million members consisting of common folk, scientists, intellectuals, economists, doctors, intellectuals and businessmen, it has an unprecedented wealth of resources, experiences and knowledge to draw from. There is no entity better placed to be Emperor of China than the CPC.

I think with Kim Jong-un, we are actually seeing some changes with NK, although the pace seems to be that of a snail in comparison with China (market reforms and the likes).

Also, far better relationship with China (got pretty bad under Kim Jong-il).

Yeah, I am not betting on it. They are still very much a hermit kingdom and I think the Kim Dynasty is scared it will lose its grip on power if the country opens up and NK citizens start getting exposed to the outside world.

 

[56860]

How? Which established methods?
Who removes them? What qualification they have to remove? How do you verify it?

Every state running system has advantage & drawbacks. However , state can't be run based on fantasy of government bazaar. Definition of democracy is great in theory. However, it never has been established in real world.

First, democracy says it is by people, of people -- Which people? When you get ill, you go to people, people with qualification to treat illness, otherwise known as doctors. You don't ask every people in country to choose a medicine for you, then take the one chosen by most.

Second, votes,choices & majority was never mentioned in democracy. Where did those come from?

A country is not a hotel, and a government is not a customer care service.Methods of getting into power & removing those who are in power should be developed by individual country based on their culture.

However, western based marketing stunts are simply ridiculous. You cant get a job without achieving certain educational credentials. How does a person being 18+ becomes automatically eligible to chose highest form of government that in turn runs sectors such as defense,economic, social development? Practically people are controlling government without putting their azz on line, the people who doesnt care about country,only themselves.

Can you see something like the Cultural Revolution happening in a western styled democracy like the US, UK or Australia? As in the ruling party says "OK, no more school, in fact start beating your teachers and professors. Start defacing cultural artifacts." Do you think people would go along with that? Do you think opposing parties would stand by and do nothing? Don't exaggerate. Democracies have their weaknesses but one of its strength is its checks and balances (relative to authoritarianism).

Btw, do you know why the Cultural Revolution ended? Mao died. Imagine if Mao lived to be 90 or 100. Thank god that bastard loved chain smoking. If I had it my way Mao would have dropped dead the moment he proclaimed the PRC atop Tiananmen in 1949.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Is it a coincidence that those first 10 years of phenomenal progress were mainly derived from the Party operating as a whole as opposed to a single individual - in other words, a competent authoritarian government? Then Emperor Mao and His Cult of Personality comes along, purges the Party, and turns China into what can only be described as an utter fustercluck - GLF, Four Pests Campaign, and the disastrous 10 year Cultural Revolution - the scars of which China is still trying to heal from today. That's incompetent authoritarianism for you, and yes, in most cases it is far worse than incompetent democracy, because at least in a democracy there are established methods of removing those from power.

Don't even get me started on North Korea, just read CPC's assessment of the Kim Dynasty:


In fact the CPC has actively encouraged WPK to opening up to no avail:


The key difference between Mao vs Deng, Jiang, Hu and Xi is that the latter four did not rule as the Emperor of China. Mao, whilst a phenomenal revolutionary, did not understand the economics behind his policies and at times this one man show led China down a very dark path.

I don't put much stock into so called incompetent vs competent authoritarianism or democracy. At the end of the day Mao or Kim are human beings who can't physically carry out any of their policies and has to sleep sometime. Laws are just pieces of paper so his legal status didn't matter much. Lots of kings and presidents who fell victim to coups were legally supreme, didn't matter.

So why did Mao get to lead and in fact was able to extrajudicially purge Party elites with tons of legal power? Popular support. At the end of the day popular support is what truly matters, nothing else, because a leader that only has laws or the military to keep them in power don't last and their orders often never even leave the capital.

As for why all those things happened? Because popular support allowed them to. Why kill the sparrows? Because farmers hated them for eating grain. If Mao ordered them to free their pigs and cows, they wouldn't have done it. Why Cultural Revolution? Not solely because Mao ordered it, but because people actually did hate many of the bureaucrats. Why GLF? Because people actually believed it could work. If they didn't that would've been the end of Mao's rule.

In every country a leader is constrained by what is politically correct in that country, and what is PC isn't determined entirely by the leadership. They can shape what is PC very slowly with education and propaganda, but it is slow. They can't order the population to do anything that is outside what is PC or they will rebel, and the population listening is the only thing separating a leader from a joke.

Some population PC is conducive to economic development, some isn't. Deng took 10 years and gave his famous 1992 Shenzhen speech to change what is PC in China, which led to the economic boom in the 90s and beyond. The first 10 years actually saw minimal progress because it was laying the foundation for public support, and the population was extremely restless at the time. Remember 严打 and famously 6-4. It was because the population didn't see Deng's policy as PC, they didn't support it wholy, only when they saw the good end results in the 90s did they support it.

On the other hand PC in India isn't conducive to economic development because it is PC to bash China, hate foreign investors, lynch each other over caste/ethnicity/religion and demand outrageous conditions for investment (see India's shit show for military procurement). All Indian leaders are constrained by that PC hence neither Singh nor Modi could change India's fate.

 

[Nobo]

Can you see something like the Cultural Revolution happening in a western styled democracy like the US, UK or Australia?

No. I see mass shooting by people to people. There is no such thing as western styled democracy. These are colonists & their childs.

Do you think people would go along with that? Do you think opposing parties would stand by and do nothing?

Yea they will. As long as it keeps paying their bills of freedom, like those gold from Iraq or oil from Syria. People get along fine when you give them "the standards" they want. What does the opposing parties do besides saying "the government is always wrong"?

Don't exaggerate. Democracies have their weaknesses but one of its strength is its checks and balances (relative to authoritarianism).

What exaggeration? Biggest weakness democracy has is, it only exists in mind,not in reality.
Who checks & who balances? The people who chose their government cosplaying as judge? Where is the balance? Can i ask the people the question? In fantasy of vote marketing, people can never be questioned for their incompetency. I dont want to question government, i want people to be held responsible as consequence of choice they make. Can i do that? Where is the check here?

Btw, do you know why the Cultural Revolution ended?

No i dont, i am not Chinese.
I can tell you about 1971 war, the legacy of same power today cosplaying as democracy.

I have no problem with "western democracy", as long as i can do exactly what they did. Path to western democracy, always passes through colonization & looting. Money first, values later.

You know how Abraham Lincoln died? Its the same guy who stole the native land & gifted it to his people, to be "elected".
Welcome to western democracy, whatever that is.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Can you see something like the Cultural Revolution happening in a western styled democracy like the US, UK or Australia? As in the ruling party says "OK, no more school, in fact start beating your teachers and professors. Start defacing cultural artifacts." Do you think people would go along with that? Do you think opposing parties would stand by and do nothing? Don't exaggerate. Democracies have their weaknesses but one of its strength is its checks and balances (relative to authoritarianism).

Btw, do you know why the Cultural Revolution ended? Mao died. Imagine if Mao lived to be 90 or 100. Thank god that bastard loved chain smoking. If I had it my way Mao would have dropped dead the moment he proclaimed the PRC atop Tiananmen in 1949.

Sure. Nazi Germany.

During Kristalnacht and the Holocaust the Nazis said it's OK for the population to beat, loot and then finally, kill Jews even if they were previously higher class like doctors or lawyers because now any Aryan is higher than any Jew.

Why did Germans go along with that? Because a huge portion of Germans actually were xenophobic, nationalist and Social Darwinist. It was PC for them to hate minorities.

It's also why other Nazi policies like jailing LGBT and giving more welfare to the "strong" (able bodied Aryans) and taking everything away from the "weak" (denying welfare to the poor and disabled) was PC even though it is the exact opposite of what welfare in every country does today. Nazis were just following what had popular support in Germany.

If the Nazis told them to love the Jews you think they would've done it??? If the Nazis said LGBT was A-OK, you think they would have listened to the Nazis? No way.

 

[AssassinsMace]

The West still trying to tell China how to be prosperous after bragging they want to cancel China. Is this the same thing as telling China how to be innovative when China is exploding with innovation despite no political freedom which the West says is a key ingredient? And they're afraid of Chinese innovation now to which why they're denying their technology to China. The West is living in a echo chamber to their own demise.

 

[SanWenYu]

According to Premier Li Keqiang, the five provincial regions in southeastern mainland contribute about 80% of the total revenue collected by the central government.

The combined GDP of the five regions, Jiangsu, Shanghai, Zhejiang, Fujian and Guangdong, is about one third of the whole country. Their share of fiscal revenue in the whole country is about 40%.

70% of all the migrant workers from rural places have jobs in these five regions. 60% of the export and import go through the Yangtze river delta and the Pearl river delta.

7日，中共中央政治局常委、国务院总理李克强在福建主持召开东南沿海省份政府主要负责人经济形势座谈会。福建省委和福建、上海、江苏、浙江、广东5省市政府主要负责人发言。

李克强说，东南沿海5省市经济占全国1/3以上，财政收入占近四成，在地方对中央财政净上缴中贡献近八成，有力支撑了国家财力和中央财政对中西部地区转移支付。

5省份吸纳了全国七成跨省农民工就业，打工是农民收入主要来源。

东南沿海是改革开放前沿，长三角、珠三角进出口占全国近60%。

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