Chinese Economics Thread

weig2000

Captain

I can't believe to this day there is still people who argue that China's HSR is anything but a huge success.

I mean, there was a time, about 5-10 years ago, when there were fierce debates both within China and internationally about the wisdom to build HSR or indeed at such a scale in China. There were debates about building passenger HSR verus freight trains. There were debates about building more HSR verus building more conventional trains. There were discussions about the financial viability of undertaking and sustaining such a rather expensive infrastructure program. There were discussions about the affordability of HSR for ordinary people and therefore if there would be sufficient traffic volume. There were discussions about the safety of the HSR, particularly after the 2011 Wenzhou accident. There were debates about whether to build more 350 km/hr class HSR or 250 km/hr class HSR, etc. etc.

Today, after more than a dozen years since the first HSR became operational in 2008 between Beijing and Tianjin and more than 39,000 km HSR have become operational, China's HSR program has succeeded beyond anyone's imagination. There are no serious opposition voices within China anymore, and most of the international criticisms and doubters (e.g., those from NYT, FT, among others) have become very quiet. There had been regrets, such as the decisions to lower the grade of some of the HSR lines under political pressure at the time have turned out to be rather poor. For instance, the now extremely popular Xian-Chengdu HSR line was downgraded from 350 km/hr to 250 km/hr, in order to save about 5% in cost.

China's latest plan call for the country's HSR to reach 70,000 km by 2035. Tells you something about the success of and confidence in the HSR.

Michael Pettis can be "pessimistic" about China's economy and HSR in particular all he wants, who cares. Nobody prevents Gordon Chang from predicting the collapsing of China every year for nearly twenty years now. It's a free world.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's like the story I've mentioned before of famed economist Nouriel Roubini who wrote an article years ago claiming China's economy was going to collapse because he said he took a maglev train to Hangzhou from Shanghai and claimed he was was the only one on board the train. Problem was I'm sure he was the only one on board since there is no maglev train route between Shanghai and Hangzhou. Roubini or an assistant probably just went on the internet and looked up HSR in China and read the many articles saying no one in China could afford it so it was a giant white elephant that was going to make the Chinese economy collapse. And those many articles probably resulted in what a US wine journalist discovered. He had read about how Chinese were buying up French wine vineyards and there was outrage among French vineyard owners. This journalist was going to write an article based on what he read but then he decided he was going to fly to France to find out himself. So when he got there and interviewed people he discovered Chinese weren't buying up French vineyards and he only found one vineyard owner that showed concern it that were happening. So all it takes is one unethical journalist to write an article full of lies and other journalists will write their own articles based on that one making it look that all these journalists did their due diligence making it look that all them must be telling the truth because they all did their own research and came up with the same conclusion.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Yuan appreciation will set the foundation of Biden-Xi negotiations. This won’t happen for another few months as Biden wants to wait a bit longer.
Yes, I do agree with that point of view, a stronger RMB will better serve China going forward.

Cheaper inputs from abroad resulting in cheaper goods should drive more consumption inside China. Chinese people are cheap. All of the sudden the prices are lower, and Chinese people will consume. I know I am cheap.

Here is the catch.

China does not need America to set the exchange. China still runs a fixed exchange rate system. There is some flexibility, but this is still a fixed exchange rate regime.

If China wants to fix the RMB at a different level, they will do so. There is no need to speak with anyone else, just make the declaration and that is it.

:)
 
D

Deleted member 15887

Guest
Both Biden and Xi wants the Yuan to appreciate against the dollar. Additional 10-20% appreciation serves the interests of both parties. A yuan appreciation is one of the levers needed to achieve the dual circulation strategy. America needs inflation to reduce its debt burden and increase domestic household savings.

Yuan appreciation will set the foundation of Biden-Xi negotiations. This won’t happen for another few months as Biden wants to wait a bit longer.
Reminds me of this Asia Times article:
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Senior Biden Administration officials have suggested Western nations might unite behind a major revaluation of China’s yuan, along the lines of the 1985 Plaza Accord with Japan.

Surprisingly, some Chinese economists have welcomed the idea – surprising because China in the past viewed the Plaza Accord as the end of Japan’s ascendancy and has been vociferous in denouncing a repeat. But the China of 2021 isn’t the Japan of 1985, and China has its own reasons to want its currency to appreciate, just as the United States has good reason to let the dollar fall – Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen’s perfunctory denial notwithstanding.

Since its May 27, 2020 low, the yuan has risen 10% against the dollar and probably has further to go. Depending on what China is offered in return, Beijing might let the Biden Administration declare victory in a currency negotiation. During the two years after the Plaza Agreement, the US dollar fell by 51% against the Japanese yen thanks to coordinated central bank intervention.

A doubling of the yuan against the dollar is out of the question, but an additional gain of 10% to 20% on top of the recent 10% appreciation isn’t impossible. Indeed, it’s the likely natural outcome of accelerating US-China economic growth divergence in favor of China in the post-Covid period.

“Biden advisers said they also will push more focused forms of multilateralism,” the
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reported Jan. 6,” adding that Jake Sullivan, “the Biden national security adviser, named the Plaza Accord of 1985 where the US and its allies intervened to weaken the dollar as a successful model of international economic cooperation.”

Sullivan’s statement went unremarked in the United States but was cited
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, a steady contributor to one of China’s most influential political websites,
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. “I hope the U.S. can unite its allies with China and exert pressure to reach a new Plaza Agreement,” the Chinese commentator said.

We wrote late last year that China’s stated intention to shift the composition of its GDP towards consumption (“dual circulation policy”) required a stronger currency (“
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,” Sept. 29, 2020). China’s national savings rate remains in the mid-40-percent range, double that of the United States.

The flip side of a high savings rate is a current account surplus: the Chinese sell goods abroad and save the proceeds. After the 2008 crisis, Beijing sustained growth through a high rate of investment; now it has to shift growth towards consumption. It wants to increase imports and will benefit from an appreciating currency that cheapens the price of imports.

The trouble with the Plaza Accord, Jīn Zhōng claims, was not simply that Japan’s currency appreciated sharply, but that Japan waited until 1989 to respond to rising inflation, and then raised the central bank’s short-term lending rate to 6% from 2.5%, provoking a stock market and real estate crash from which it has yet to recover.

China, he explains, had a similar problem after 2008 when the US let the dollar depreciate. Chinese inflation rose, the central bank tightened, and the stock market crashed in 2015 and 2016.

Easy money in the West feeds asset bubbles in China, especially in real estate, the guancha.cn analyst argues, citing the rapid growth in China’s foreign exchange reserves since 2008 and the rise in China’s inflation rate. China has to deleverage its economy, but gradually, “tapping the brakes slowly,” he concludes.

As
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columnist Tom Holland wrote in 2019, “the yen overshot massively, doubling in value against the US dollar by the end of 1987.” The Bank of Japan cut interest rates in a failed attempt to stop the yen’s appreciation, but this “ignited a domestic boom of epic proportions. It was a classic financial bubble, and inevitably it burst, pushing Japan into a deflationary liquidity trap it is still trying to escape.”

But, as Holland observed, “the cause of Japan’s lost decades was not the appreciation of the yen that followed the Plaza Accord. It was the misguided attempts of the Japanese authorities to resist that appreciation.”

That is the guancha.cn columnist’s point as well: Through adept monetary management and gradual de-leveraging, China can absorb the impact of a rising currency without creating a boom-and-bust cycle.

Chinese economic circumstances, moreover, are very different from Japan’s in 1985. For one thing, Japan’s savers could not be persuaded to spend. China’s population, by contrast, has enormous pent-up demand for consumer goods, including automobiles and appliances.

China already has agreed to cut its import tariffs by up to 90% under the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership concluded among 16 Asian nations in November, a signal that Beijing wants more and cheaper imports to satisfy consumer demand. A rising yuan would accomplish the same objective.

America has the opposite problem. The Biden Administration wants to spend an incremental $4 trillion, or about 20% of US GDP, on a combination of economic stimulus and infrastructure investments, as Jīn Zhōng notes in his guancha.cn analysis. It needs a combination of foreign inflows and higher domestic savings to finance this enormous expenditure.

With foreign purchases of US Treasury securities down to zero during 2020, the US depends mainly on the Federal Reserve to absorb the avalanche of new debt on its balance sheet, which rose by $3 trillion over the past year. A falling dollar does double duty: It raises the domestic inflation rate, prompting households to save more (to compensate for a fall in the value of existing savings), and it cheapens domestic assets to attract foreign flows.

Along with the prospective appreciation of the yuan, two other key items will figure prominently in US-Chinese negotiations. During the campaign, candidate Joe Biden excoriated the Trump Administration for imposing high tariffs on Chinese goods, arguing (in our view correctly) that the tariffs provoked an industrial recession in 2019, well before the COVID-19 pandemic. Presumably, Biden would like to get rid of the tariffs, but will not do so unless he gets something in return.

The other issue is restrictions on sales of US technology to China. China is by far the largest consumer of semiconductors (although some of this is for components for exported goods), buying $350 billion of computer chips in 2020, out of total world demand of $440 billion. No semiconductor company can survive without sales to China, and the US high-tech industry viewed Trump’s restrictions with anguish.
 
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Deleted member 15887

Guest
Reminds me of this Asia Times article:
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CONTINUED-
Biden’s Silicon Valley constituency wants to climb down from this ledge, before China’s massive internal program to achieve semiconductor self-sufficiency creates a monster that threatens the viability of the major American firms. Again, Biden will not ease controls unless he is perceived to get something in return, for example, an opening of China’s internal market to US technology firms.

In the medium to long term, China wants to expand the global use of the yuan as a reserve currency, although not if it increases the vulnerability of its internal market. China needs to reduce leverage and make its regulatory framework more robust before it can open its capital markets sufficiently to achieve this goal. A strengthening yuan and a consequent increase in imports, though, promote this goal.

A country that offers a reserve currency must make that currency available to the rest of the world. It is hard to run a chronic current account surplus, which siphons money out of the rest of the world and offer a reserve currency. The world suffered a chronic dollar shortage in the wake of the Second World War, and the US compensated through the Marshall Plan and other aid and lending programs.

China can afford to run a zero or even slightly negative current account balance as imports rise, preparing the ground for the eventual use of the yuan as a major reserve currency. In that respect, yuan appreciation today prepares the ground for China’s medium-term objectives.

We conclude that on all three of these issues – yuan appreciation, import tariffs and technology export controls – Joe Biden and Xi Jinping have overlapping if not identical interests. The objective correlation of forces, as Communist Parties liked to say, points to a US-Chinese agreement. That by itself doesn’t make for an agreement. Both sides have to understand and work with the other’s perceptions and internal political requirements.

Since the Deng Xiaoping reforms of more than 40 years ago, the Chinese have avoided grand policy shifts. They have preferred experimental pragmatism and gradualism, rather than big solutions and disruptive “revolutionary” change. For example, Shenzhen, a sleepy fishing village when Deng took the premiership, became one of China’s first capitalist experiments; as it became a high-tech megalopolis, other examples followed.

In contrast to Deng, Xi Jinping is less patient and more inclined to attempt big solutions. Nonetheless, cautious pragmatism remains the prevalent mood at China’s State Council. If the Biden team understands China’s aversion to grand gestures and gives China space to work through the policy at its own pace, then a comprehensive agreement is possible. China wants and needs to strengthen its currency; if it can secure other agreements while doing what it planned to do in any case, all the better.

A strong currency will appeal to Xi’s sense of national grandeur. The predilection for a strong currency echoes the Meiji restoration motto of “Rich country, strong army” (Fukoku kyōhei (富国強兵) and its Chinese equivalent fuguo qiangbing (富国强兵) of the Warring States period. It is quite possible for both Xi and Biden to get what they want, or, better said, to learn to want what they will get in any case.
 

pakje

Junior Member
Registered Member
@cbl21

I'm skeptical, a lower value rmb actually is good for the usa economy.
Biden might be just saying this for optics, and in reality doesn't want China to appreciate its currency.

Frankly I'm not sure if it's possible to go from a service economy back to a industrial one, atleast not without huge effort that is probably spent better somewhere else
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
People often fail to recognize why a country exports in the first place.

A country exports in order to import technologies/products it doesn't have.

If your exports aren't worth much, your currency won't be worth much.

A strengthening Yuan must be accompanied by higher tech/quality exports.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Another disillusional and wishful thinking article coming from David Goldman. Asia Times and SCMP both have become Western mouthpiece and both are trying to sell the idea that appreciation of yuan is good for China and Xi.

Like the trade negotiation, when Liu bought back a trade agreement that undermines China's sovereignty, many people in the West and China think China would sign the deal but Xi and the Chinese leadership rejected the deal. Same thing with another Plaza accord, China isn't going to allow other countries to dictate its policies and violate its sovereignty.

In addition, China isn't going to save the US like it did in 2008. It is too costly to save the US. And it is strategically wrong to help the US. Moreover, China doesn't want to accumulate more debts for its state and private companies. For example, HNA and Wanda didn't adhere to the massive deleverage campaign for the last few years and paid a heavy price. Any state or private companies investment in the US are deemed not safe anymore.

The recent appreciation of yuan has undermined many Chinese companies from making a profit. A further appreciation is just not viable in the short term. Chinese exporters still are the main jobs creators especially when the domestic services sector would need another year or so to fully recover. I just don't see why China is in any hurry to appreciate yuan any further.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Another disillusional and wishful thinking article coming from David Goldman. Asia Times and SCMP both have become Western mouthpiece and both are trying to sell the idea that appreciation of yuan is good for China and Xi.

Like the trade negotiation, when Liu bought back a trade agreement that undermines China's sovereignty, many people in the West and China think China would sign the deal but Xi and the Chinese leadership rejected the deal. Same thing with another Plaza accord, China isn't going to allow other countries to dictate its policies and violate its sovereignty.

In addition, China isn't going to save the US like it did in 2008. It is too costly to save the US. And it is strategically wrong to help the US. Moreover, China doesn't want to accumulate more debts for its state and private companies. For example, HNA and Wanda didn't adhere to the massive deleverage campaign for the last few years and paid a heavy price. Any state or private companies investment in the US are deemed not safe anymore.

The recent appreciation of yuan has undermined many Chinese companies from making a profit. A further appreciation is just not viable in the short term. Chinese exporters still are the main jobs creators especially when the domestic services sector would need another year or so to fully recover. I just don't see why China is in any hurry to appreciate yuan any further.
To me, that is not the most important point.

The most important point is they are running the printing presses.

One day, that fact alone, will massively alter the exchange rate.

China runs a fixed exchange rate system. Will China one day in the future, change that fix rate from 6.5 to 4.0 overnight? That is within their right to do so. Or will they take that inevitable path with gradual revisions, allowing domestic companies to get used to what the world will be like.

Another point I would like to add but it is more of a speculation a guess of how this situation could work.

China is the second biggest economy in the world, and the largest trading nation in the world, and also the largest manufacturer in the world.

That alone should give China pricing power in its currency. Meaning that changes to the value to the RMB will not and cannot alter trade flows immediately because China is so central to world trade flows as it is.

So if they the PBoC raises the RMB gradually over time, they would avoid a shock re-valuation of the RMB one day in the future (and at the same time not change too much the competitive position of Chinese companies). At least, that should be the goal.

This is assuming, that the printing presses will eventually debase the currency.
 
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