Chinese cruise and anti-ship missiles

Engineer

Major
The problem is that most hydrophone lines need to meet up at hubs and monitoring stations otherwise there will be an immense amount of cabling needed to run, plus high amounts of maintenance needed. Knock out hubs and you knock out large areas of the sensor grid. The Iraqi's during Gulf War I had a vast fibre optic communications grid laid across the Iraqi desert. From good intelligence work, we managed to find a number of the hubs and they were targeted by Allied aircraft and missiles. The result was that the Iraqi's had large holes in coverage of their fibre optic grid. As a result, the Iraqi's were forced to communicate via radio, which is easily intercepted, and jammed.

Example with Iraq is again irrelevant. It is irrelevant because comparison of China to Iraq is simply invalid.

You spoke of hitting targets within China as if it will be a cakewalk. In reality, China has the land-equivalent of everything you can find within a CVBG, so the task will be as difficult if not more so than raiding your own CVBG with aircraft and cruise missiles. Assets within China are not limited by the sea and have home-field advantage, two things that a CVBG doesn't have.

We know very well that SOSUS was very vulnerable as a detection system. During the Cold War, the SOSUS system was very frequently damaged by civilian activities such as trawling. In fact, there were accusations levelled by the US against the Soviets as the Americans believed that the Soviets intentionally cut the lines. With the high amount of fishing activity in the East China Sea, A Chinese SOSUS system will be damaged frequently by trawlers, which will necessitate frequent and expensive repairs.

As SOSUS had to be laid by cable ships, sudden manoeuvres or major deviations of course while laying the cable is impossible. As a result, the Soviets tailed the laying of the SOSUS line with naval and research ships, and they observed our activities very closely. As a result, they knew where our lines were.
Trawling activities do damage undersea cables, but these can be repaired. Furthermore, modern undersea cables can be buried, thus mitigate against most human induced damage. Expensive is a subjective term, but the US did not find the maintenance of SOSUS to be cost-prohibitive. Towards the end of the Cold War, the US was even using hydrophones that only have "look up" capability, necessitating large number of them to be placed and immense amount of cabling. Again, the US did not find that to be cost-prohibitive either.

A hydrophone network is simply not a house of cards as you made it sounds to be. Your cost argument also holds no water, especially when you provided no comparisons to the cost of other military systems.

Additionally, SOSUS had to be cued in order to detect ships and submarines. It had to know what to look for, when, and approximately where.
While you keep on portraying the SOSUS to be useless, the fact that US has operated the network throughout the Cold War says the complete opposite.

We did this through the use of a couple high powered HD/DF stations in a number of countries, signals interception stations in Norway, Norwegian intelligence collection ships, and reconnaissance satellites. In the Pacific, we had assistance from the Japanese in establishing HD/DF stations, signals interception stations, and of course, intelligence ships. In short, we had to know when Soviet ships and submarines were planning to sortie, and the expected route the Soviets planned on making. We also at times could crack into Soviet code so we could read the orders sent to the subs. The Chinese lack most of these capabilities.
Wrong! Your list contains nothing more than reconnaissance satellites, radars (that do the samething as HF/DF), and assets that gather signal intelligence. China has all that. Furthermore, China has access to sheer computation power that US didn't have access to back in the days. Signals that were too computational expensive to extract thus being undetectable are no longer the case today. Code-cracking is not an unique ability of the US, and you have no proof that China doesn't operate its own signal monitoring stations on foreign soil.

Furthermore, not all attempts at tracking Soviet submarines were successful with SOSUS. Often, Soviets subs were just never detected by SOSUS in the first place, or if they were detected, we lost track of the submarine.
And exactly how often is "often"? 1/10, 5/10 or 9/10? This paragraph says completely nothing.
 

cloyce

Junior Member
Cloyce,

The ASBM I am refering to is the DF21 MRBM missile for anti ship use. Therefore I believe the SM-3 can intercept it as it is also an extra-atmospheric missile?

SM-3 is supposed to intercept a ballistic missile just after the apogee.

So, by the time DF-21 is within SM-3 reach, it will be already under the atmosphere.

IMPORTANT QUESTION :

Sometime ago I've heard that DF-21 ASBM is a 2-stage missile.
So it's supposed to fly under the atmosphere all the time.

Is this true?
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
SM-3 is supposed to intercept a ballistic missile just after the apogee.

So, by the time DF-21 is within SM-3 reach, it will be already under the atmosphere.

IMPORTANT QUESTION :

Sometime ago I've heard that DF-21 ASBM is a 2-stage missile.
So it's supposed to fly under the atmosphere all the time.

Is this true?

A ballistic missile flying under the atmosphere??? Is that still a ballistic missile?

Even the German V2 could reach an altitude of 55 miles, just 5 miles shy of the U.S. definition of space.
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Code-cracking is not an unique ability of the US, and you have no proof that China doesn't operate its own signal monitoring stations on foreign soil.

Actually they do. China has lots of monitoring stations outside of mainland China. There's at least one in Burma monitoring maritime traffic approaching and leaving the Malaccas
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Example with Iraq is again irrelevant. It is irrelevant because comparison of China to Iraq is simply invalid.

You spoke of hitting targets within China as if it will be a cakewalk. In reality, China has the land-equivalent of everything you can find within a CVBG, so the task will be as difficult if not more so than raiding your own CVBG with aircraft and cruise missiles. Assets within China are not limited by the sea and have home-field advantage, two things that a CVBG doesn't have.

The comparison is valid because the SOSUS system's layout is similar to how Iraq laid out their fibre optic communications grid. There are hubs and nodes that if targeted, can knock out vast sections of that grid.

And fixed, land based targets are easy to target. They are fixed, and static. Yes, you can try to bury them in heavy duty bunkers, but the US has demonstrated bunker busting capabilities. The Iraqi's buried their command bunkers deep into the sand and built them with 6 metres of reinforced concrete. We penetrated such bunkers with ease in Desert Storm.

You can try to defend them; the Americans have the B-2 which is stealthy, and can slip past such defences, especially at night, and in poor conditions.

Trawling activities do damage undersea cables, but these can be repaired. Furthermore, modern undersea cables can be buried, thus mitigate against most human induced damage. Expensive is a subjective term, but the US did not find the maintenance of SOSUS to be cost-prohibitive. Towards the end of the Cold War, the US was even using hydrophones that only have "look up" capability, necessitating large number of them to be placed and immense amount of cabling. Again, the US did not find that to be cost-prohibitive either.

A hydrophone network is simply not a house of cards as you made it sounds to be. Your cost argument also holds no water, especially when you provided no comparisons to the cost of other military systems.

I demonstrated that such systems can be systematically damaged easily. The Americans can say, lean on the Japanese, Taiwanese, and South Koreans and other allies to send their trawler fleets around Chinese SOSUS lines and damage them. Or they can send their own ships to do the same. And since such repairs take time, damaging them at a critical time means that repairing the damage in time is not feasible until a conflict ends.

And burying cables is often of no use; trawling activity can leave deep gouges in the seabed, uncovering buried objects.

While you keep on portraying the SOSUS to be useless, the fact that US has operated the network throughout the Cold War says the complete opposite.

It offered increased probability that they could find and track Soviet subs. It does not guarantee 100% detection and tracking.

Wrong! Your list contains nothing more than reconnaissance satellites, radars (that do the samething as HF/DF), and assets that gather signal intelligence. China has all that. Furthermore, China has access to sheer computation power that US didn't have access to back in the days. Signals that were too computational expensive to extract thus being undetectable are no longer the case today. Code-cracking is not an unique ability of the US, and you have no proof that China doesn't operate its own signal monitoring stations on foreign soil.

And exactly how often is "often"? 1/10, 5/10 or 9/10? This paragraph says completely nothing.

Reconnaissance satellites and radars are NOT the same was HF/DF. HF/DF is signals interception. It's about intercepting a radio transmission and triangulating the signal.

In order to allow SOSUS to detect and track Soviet subs heading into the Atlantic, it has to be cued and alerted beforehand as to where to look. We could detect when a Soviet sub receives orders to sail out. We then used our reconnaissance satellites to look at Soviet naval bases to see which subs are preparing to set sail. Once US intelligence was made aware, they passed the information to SOSUS so they had an idea where to look and when, could they attempt to track Soviet subs heading into the Atlantic. We then could send our attack subs to trail Soviet subs as they conducted their patrols.

However, we did loose contact on a number of occasions, or never detected Soviet subs in the first place. For example, the USS Batfish in 1978 was tracking a Yankee class SSBN. Batfish lost contact with the sub during a heavy storm, and until a P-3 assisted the search and the storm subsided, they did not find the sub.

At times, we never detected the submarine in the first place; for example, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, US forces were only able to find 3 out of 4 Foxtrot class submarines in the area. The last one was never found.
 

xywdx

Junior Member
In order to allow SOSUS to detect and track Soviet subs heading into the Atlantic, it has to be cued and alerted beforehand as to where to look. We could detect when a Soviet sub receives orders to sail out. We then used our reconnaissance satellites to look at Soviet naval bases to see which subs are preparing to set sail. Once US intelligence was made aware, they passed the information to SOSUS so they had an idea where to look and when, could they attempt to track Soviet subs heading into the Atlantic. We then could send our attack subs to trail Soviet subs as they conducted their patrols.

However, we did loose contact on a number of occasions, or never detected Soviet subs in the first place. For example, the USS Batfish in 1978 was tracking a Yankee class SSBN. Batfish lost contact with the sub during a heavy storm, and until a P-3 assisted the search and the storm subsided, they did not find the sub.

At times, we never detected the submarine in the first place; for example, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, US forces were only able to find 3 out of 4 Foxtrot class submarines in the area. The last one was never found.

Then sub captain can just sit in the water sipping a cup of tea while watching the fireworks on the surface.
 

Engineer

Major
The comparison is valid because the SOSUS system's layout is similar to how Iraq laid out their fibre optic communications grid. There are hubs and nodes that if targeted, can knock out vast sections of that grid.
Nope. It is as invalid as claiming the defense of CVBG is useless while citing Iraq's poor performance. It is as invalid as generalizing that two pictures are the same because the color of one of their pixel is the same. It is invalid because you focus on superficial similarities of tiny details while ignoring the overall picture. It is invalid because you are still making the same mistake of comparing China to Iraq.

And fixed, land based targets are easy to target. They are fixed, and static. Yes, you can try to bury them in heavy duty bunkers, but the US has demonstrated bunker busting capabilities. The Iraqi's buried their command bunkers deep into the sand and built them with 6 metres of reinforced concrete. We penetrated such bunkers with ease in Desert Storm.
Another irrelevant example, because Iraq is irrelevant.

You can try to defend them; the Americans have the B-2 which is stealthy, and can slip past such defences, especially at night, and in poor conditions.
B-2 isn't some magical airplane that could lay a path of destruction simply by flying over things. B-2 needs to drop bombs, and these bombs aren't going to find their targets when GPS is jammed.

In addition, you are forgetting that the threat of low-observable aircraft has been known for two decades, and that B-2 itself is a high priority target of espionage. This means nations have a lot of time to look into the problem to come up with a solution. B-2 isn't as "stealthy" as it used to be and now encounters a much higher risk when navigating through the defense of another major power.

I demonstrated that such systems can be systematically damaged easily. The Americans can say, lean on the Japanese, Taiwanese, and South Koreans and other allies to send their trawler fleets around Chinese SOSUS lines and damage them. Or they can send their own ships to do the same. And since such repairs take time, damaging them at a critical time means that repairing the damage in time is not feasible until a conflict ends.
First, civilian ships are not fitted with the same equipments that enable military ships to coordinate their action. The civilian crew is not trained in performing military tasks, and military personnel are not trained to operate a fishing trawler. Second, you are underestimating the robustness of an undersea cable while overestimating the amount of damage trawling can cause. There have been occasions where undersea cables have snagged the equipments from trawlers, causing the boats to be immobile and even capsized. Third, a trawler towing its gears travel at 4kts and if it did manage to cut a cable, it cannot travel very far. It will be the dictionary definition of a sitting duck. Forth, any hostile targets that are found will be destroyed at war time, and this is applicable to fishing boats. Ships will not be allowed to roam freely within China's defense perimeter, let alone having hundred of trawlers moving up and down China's coastline. And any party which participate in such act of war will automatically find themselves on the receiving end of military strikes. Putting all these together, your scenario will remain your fantasy.

And burying cables is often of no use; trawling activity can leave deep gouges in the seabed, uncovering buried objects.
No use? The fact that cable burial is invented and being implemented says the complete opposite.

It offered increased probability that they could find and track Soviet subs. It does not guarantee 100% detection and tracking.

...

However, we did loose contact on a number of occasions, or never detected Soviet subs in the first place. For example, the USS Batfish in 1978 was tracking a Yankee class SSBN. Batfish lost contact with the sub during a heavy storm, and until a P-3 assisted the search and the storm subsided, they did not find the sub.

At times, we never detected the submarine in the first place; for example, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, US forces were only able to find 3 out of 4 Foxtrot class submarines in the area. The last one was never found.
Nothing can guarantee 100% detection and tracking, but that does not dismiss a system to be useless.

Reconnaissance satellites and radars are NOT the same was HF/DF. HF/DF is signals interception. It's about intercepting a radio transmission and triangulating the signal.

In order to allow SOSUS to detect and track Soviet subs heading into the Atlantic, it has to be cued and alerted beforehand as to where to look. We could detect when a Soviet sub receives orders to sail out. We then used our reconnaissance satellites to look at Soviet naval bases to see which subs are preparing to set sail. Once US intelligence was made aware, they passed the information to SOSUS so they had an idea where to look and when, could they attempt to track Soviet subs heading into the Atlantic. We then could send our attack subs to trail Soviet subs as they conducted their patrols.
Signal intelligence has already been mentioned in my previous reply. Again, I shall point out China has reconnaissance satellites, radars, and assets that gather signal intelligence. It has access to computational power not available to Americans back then, as well as code-cracking ability which is not a unique skill to the US. Thus, China certainly does not "lack most of these capabilities".
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Nope. It is as invalid as claiming the defense of CVBG is useless while citing Iraq's poor performance. It is as invalid as generalizing that two pictures are the same because the color of one of their pixel is the same. It is invalid because you focus on superficial similarities of tiny details while ignoring the overall picture. It is invalid because you are still making the same mistake of comparing China to Iraq.


Another irrelevant example, because Iraq is irrelevant.

You are missing the point. I shall rephrase my comments as follows:

Both the Iraqi fibre optic communications grid and SOSUS are like a spider web. When you start cutting certain sections of the spider web, say like the anchor lines, large sections of the spider web collapse. These anchor lines are like the nodes and stations that are used in the Iraqi fibre optic communications grid and SOSUS; they provide points where the cables meet or branch out. You knock out these nodes, you knock out large sections of the grid.

B-2 isn't some magical airplane that could lay a path of destruction simply by flying over things. B-2 needs to drop bombs, and these bombs aren't going to find their targets when GPS is jammed.

In addition, you are forgetting that the threat of low-observable aircraft has been known for two decades, and that B-2 itself is a high priority target of espionage. This means nations have a lot of time to look into the problem to come up with a solution. B-2 isn't as "stealthy" as it used to be and now encounters a much higher risk when navigating through the defense of another major power.
The US has laser guided munitions as well; in fact, the vast majority of the American bunker buster stock is laser guided. Furthermore, weapons like the AGM-154C JSOW are infra-red guided.

The B-2 and other low observable aircraft in the US inventory have been upgraded to use a variety of stand off weapons. These weapons allow the engagement of defended targets from outside the range of standard anti-aircraft defences, thereby increasing aircraft survivability.


First, civilian ships are not fitted with the same equipments that enable military ships to coordinate their action. The civilian crew is not trained in performing military tasks, and military personnel are not trained to operate a fishing trawler. Second, you are underestimating the robustness of an undersea cable while overestimating the amount of damage trawling can cause. There have been occasions where undersea cables have snagged the equipments from trawlers, causing the boats to be immobile and even capsized. Third, a trawler towing its gears travel at 4kts and if it did manage to cut a cable, it cannot travel very far. It will be the dictionary definition of a sitting duck. Forth, any hostile targets that are found will be destroyed at war time, and this is applicable to fishing boats. Ships will not be allowed to roam freely within China's defense perimeter, let alone having hundred of trawlers moving up and down China's coastline. And any party which participate in such act of war will automatically find themselves on the receiving end of military strikes. Putting all these together, your scenario will remain your fantasy.

1. There is no need to extensively coordinate a trawler fleet. As long as you provide general coordinates, you are clear.
2. Military crew are well trained in general ship handling and operations. Otherwise, how are ship boarding crews able to board, seize control of ships and navigate them with uncooperative crews?
3. It is hard to prove intent. Would the Chinese risk angering Japan, South Korea or other nearby nations by attacking civilian trawlers just because they cut cables? Under UNCLOS, foreign ships are allowed free passage through a nation's territorial waters, and a nation cannot suspend that right for extended periods of time. China is a signatory to UNCLOS, and as such, your reaction would be in violation of international law.
4. Additionally, most submarine cables that go long distances are composed of a short section of armoured cable for shallow water, and a thinner, lightweight cable to go long distances, as it is prohibitively expense to use armoured cable to go long distances, coupled with the inflexibility of armoured cable.

No use? The fact that cable burial is invented and being implemented says the complete opposite.
Cable burial can only occur under certain seabed conditions, and it can only be buried at a shallow depth due to the limitations of the technology.

You under estimate the damage bottom trawling can do to the ocean floor; the damage done by bottom trawling to the sea bed can actually be seen from outer space via satellites. Large, deep gouges can be carved into the sea floor from such activities.
 

lcloo

Captain
I think SOSUS with cable is vulnerable ro attack, especially by those who have opearated the system for half a cenntury.

I would rather have mobile listening posts that have self-defense and attack capability, and can be easily replaced when out of action. Patrol submarines can formed a llne listening in the oceans, but conventional subs do not have endurance under water, and China do not have enough nuk subs for such tasks. May be building more AIP Yuans would be good idea.

Under water listening robbots that swim or walk may not be a science fiction soon. Much like global hawk in the sky, these robbots can opearate for long duration and retrive at , the end of their mission. They can even be armed with torpedo like the Predator UAV with AGM missiles.

SOSUS is dated.

I am sure the Chinese would have think of this idea long before it came into my mind.
 

Maggern

Junior Member
3. It is hard to prove intent. Would the Chinese risk angering Japan, South Korea or other nearby nations by attacking civilian trawlers just because they cut cables? Under UNCLOS, foreign ships are allowed free passage through a nation's territorial waters, and a nation cannot suspend that right for extended periods of time. China is a signatory to UNCLOS, and as such, your reaction would be in violation of international law.

Those nations would initally be aware of the risk that if their civilian trawler fleet was in danger of severly damaging Chinese military infrastructure and would thus impose limitations on the movements of their fleets, unless they were ready to take the Chinese on.

UNCLOS gives the right for innocent passage:

1. Foreign trawling is only permitted outside the Exclusive Economic Zone (or inside, if allowed by the host nation), thus the Chinese would be able to deny any foreign trawlers inside their waters (why would a fleet of trawlers cross into Chinese territorial waters if they were not there for fishing?)
2. If ships passing through territorial waters are in danger of damaging military infrastructure or in any way pose a threat to the host county, said country is at full right to deny the ship(s) passage, and if necessary, engage the vessels.

PS: I was under the impression that the actual value of the SOSUS was merely to count the number of Soviet subs operating in the Atlantic, not actually tracking all of them. The US knew how many subs were stationed in Murmansk and registered traffic both ways crossing the SOSUS line, thus always knowing how many to look for.
 
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